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I've noticed that players, over time, tend to be a "law unto themselves" taking whatever liberties they feel is necessary for the storyline they're trying to figure out / win/ solve, and can leave a path of illegal actions in their wake that they themselves don't have to deal with because they're long gone or too powerful to stop. Or if the consequences do catch up, they don't realize what's going on and simply kill whoever is trying to bring them to justice.

Note: this has nothing to do with the "what my character would do" nor players being "murdering hoboes," themes of questions that have been asked in the past.

Guards don't seem to be the answer (as they'd have to be more powerful than the PCs)

SevenSidedDie
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Jesse Cohoon
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    This almost certainly needs to be more specific about the situation you're encountering. We can't address the sweeping situation "PCs are troublemakers" with no specifics at all on what they're doing or their setting or any information at all about your gaming group. Everyone is going to have a dozen unique, not necessarily even useful solutions, and many of them are going to be more or less effective in different circumstances. Could you tell us what is actually happening, and some information about your setting and gaming group, such that we can provide a somewhat specific solution? – doppelgreener Jul 05 '16 at 02:06
  • @doppelgreener It's on hold, and I'm not going to mess with trying to edit it more right now. Maybe at some later point I will. – Jesse Cohoon Jul 05 '16 at 02:14
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    That's fine, up to you how you want to approach this & at your own pace. I recognise it's on hold; I'm leaving those comments to point out problems in the question & suggest avenues of improvement that will likely make it more siteworthy, if you want to pursue those at all. – doppelgreener Jul 05 '16 at 02:31

5 Answers5

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In my experience, "high level guy shows up and punches you in the face" comes across as "rocks fall, everyone dies" - DM fiat. And the players may be right, since it's possible that you didn't establish the laws well enough ahead of time. For this reason, it's vital to build up to that confrontation, in the same way as a real legal system will go from warning to fine to community service to jail time to execution.

The reach of reputation expands as crimes pile up

Information flows between cities and villages. As the PCs adventure, they gain a reputation for the deeds they perform. As the PCs break laws, this leads to gradual escalation.

First, the city guard will ask them to stop, or face the law. If the city guard is unable to succeed (because they are dead), the count that owns the city will send his elite troops to bring the PCs to justice.

If the elite troops are likewise slain or eluded, this will get the attention of the duke (who can pay mercenaries), the archbishop (who sends an order of paladins), and maybe even the king (who sends his legendary retired adventurer friend to see what's shaking).

This way, verisimilitude is conserved (there is only one legendary high-level adventurer in the entire kingdom) but there is a well-established reason for why he's shown up.

Biting the hand that feeds you

As all of this is happening, merchants begin refusing to serve these infamous criminals. Other criminals may take offense themselves - only the Clown Prince of Crime is allowed to wantonly murder in this city!

Quest-givers should rightly refuse to pay the PCs, or have anything to do with them, if the PCs murdered half the village to find the treasure buried there.

Noblesse oblige

As the PCs gain levels, the scope of their adventure broadens. There are few CR-appropriate threats left in the village they call home, so they cast fly and set off to find higher-level problems. Then comes teleport and even plane shift, and now your PCs are actors on the multiversal scale, fighting planar threats instead of mere goblins.

Being important on such a scale is generally the domain of lords, so many PCs will end up either having powerful kings as patrons, or being powerful kings in their own right. And powerful kings are often petitioned by their people to do stuff (such as rein in the murderhobos in their employ). Failure to comply leads to discontent and rebellion! While a squad of adventurers has high tactical utility, they will not be able to hold an entire country together single-handedly. It's too bad that breaking all those laws has turned the army against them. Good luck keeping any influence beyond the tip of your sword!

If you break it, you buy it

Let's say the PCs managed to murder every single agent of the law. Okay - that's called conquest and now they own the kingdom. Time to start fixing what they ruined...

SPavel
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    what about things of a more political nature? Case in point. There could be a nation of Orcs (or other monstrous humanoids) that the human kingdom has an uneasy peace. They go in, based off of a rumor and kill some monsters there, who figure out (or assume) it was someone from this kingdom who broke the treaty. So they're now accountable for war crimes, and bringing an entire nation to war. – Jesse Cohoon Jul 04 '16 at 21:23
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    Same thing - the border town's sheriff launches an investigation, then if he fails, the nearest magistrate is involved, and so on until the king finds out. For a crime of this magnitude, I wouldn't even bother with due process too much - since it's more important to find anyone to blame, as soon as they try to evade justice, they become marked by the entire kingdom, and perhaps the orcs as well. – SPavel Jul 04 '16 at 22:05
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    Unless the party has a Wizard or Cleric, in which case they either Create Demiplane and peace out, or burn the whole castle down, or just curse the land so no food grows and everyone dies of starvation. – GreySage Jul 04 '16 at 22:38
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    @GreySage That sort of action brings down clerics of other faiths, clerics of your own faith unless you're Evil, and probably Solars as well. Hiding in a demiplane for the rest of your life is basically prison anyway, and it's not like you can never be found. – SPavel Jul 04 '16 at 23:05
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This is, as you rightly suggest, an issue of campaign design as well as of player management. The campaign design aspects come in at a surprisingly foundational level, in my opinion: What is the distribution of physically powerful NPCs and institutions in your world? If they are plentiful, the question becomes, "Why does this campaign world need the PC heroes in the first place?" If they are sparse, how are the powerful PCs kept in place (and indeed, why have their counterparts not simply taken over the game world?)

Once you start to have a handle on these basic questions, you can start to think through methods of control. I can't tell for certain, but your game world sounds as though it might be on the sparse end, and that is my comfort zone as well. One framework I have seen used to devastatingly good effect for sparse populations of powerful PCs/NPCs is a system of patronage, which has three broad levels of retaliation/control.

It works like this:

In such a setting, stipulate that generally one is not born being the sort of person who can casually and effectively murder their way out of every situation. They were probably taught such skills by someone, for a purpose. These people, or organizations, or institutions, may very well act as gatekeepers for further advances-- houserule it, if you must. They may also act as gatekeepers for other vital resources, as well: Not just leveling up, but information, magical commodities, writs of authority, even entry into cities or home bases and so forth.

They are patrons. They may be different for each PC, even. There is every reason to imagine that the rogue's patron is not the same as the cleric's patron. If they are rare, presumably, they are also busy, thus explaining why they need the PCs, but what they do not need is the PCs embarrassing them.

The first stage of a patron exerting control, aside from a pointed verbal warning, is passively shutting down access to those resources. Oh, your loot is fetching silvers on the gold for what it's worth? Maybe there's a reason for that. And yes, there's a TERRIBLE shortage of healing potions. No, those are already reserved for someone else. Someone who isn't you.

The second stage is more pointed: Even if the population of powerful people is sparse, that doesn't mean the PCs are the only ones. Surely they have rivals trying to advance in their patrons' good graces.

And the final stage (by which time the campaign is probably broken, so don't let it go this far) is for a patron to decide that the time has come to get their hands dirty. This should be something the players are made to fear, not necessarily through direct displays of power, but possibly also by tales of what happened the last time someone stepped that seriously out of line. It doesn't even have to be ghastly if the patrons aren't evil, just effective.

If your players are not bound and determined to role-play sociopathic murderhobos (i.e., if they're just generally thoughtless, not actively wicked) you should be able to get your point across. Just make sure not to be too cryptic-- if your players are scratching their heads, you are not being clear enough and are not helping the situation. And make it clear that reconciliation in the early stages is possible and desirable-- if they feel they've crossed a permanent line into outlawry you are also not helping yourself.

If you are consistent, you should be able to get them to keep thinking in terms of ramifications and social behavior long after you've moved out of the ramification phase. At which point, it can be fun to have them face down a similar problem from the other side-- a similar junior NPC might be causing problems and the PCs are sent to deal with it gracefully. Or perhaps it's their own junior NPC embarrassing them directly.

Novak
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The way to approach this depends on your goal. Is your goal to portray a realistic setting, even if that isn't the most fun thing for your group? Or is your goal to have a game in which characters aren't evil?

I ask because I sometimes see games that go like this:

Player: I'd like to torture some civilians for fun!
DM: I let my players do what they want, but if you do this you could suffer consequences later.
Player: Great! Torture torture torture!
DM: Okay, you do that. Now the police are hounding you. You can't get anything done because you're constantly under attack by people trying to arrest you. You're going to have to spend the rest of the game hiding, losing fights against the police, in fear for your life.
Player: I'm not having fun any more. I'm going to quit the game.

This is not a good way to have a game in which characters aren't evil. A better way might be what I call the Just Say No approach:

Player: I'd like to torture some civilians for fun!
DM: You can't do that, because it's too evil. That's not the kind of game I want to run.

An even better way might be the Same Page Tool approach:

DM: Before we start this campaign, let's all agree on the tone. I want this to be a heroic game, meaning everybody has to create characters that wouldn't want to torture civilians for fun. If that's a problem -- if you really, really want to roleplay torturing civilians for fun -- you should find a different DM.


But let's assume the Same Page Tool approach won't work here. The problem with portraying a realistic criminal justice system is the same as the problem with portraying a realistic death by stomach-worm infestation: by the time you need rules for what this should look like, your game is pretty much wrecked anyway. Once the police decide your party needs to be locked up, they're going to keep escalating until the player characters are fighting the entire army. Even if they somehow survive that, this will reliably wreck the plot of your campaign.

One compromise is to have a criminal justice system that tries to punish the players, but have the cops be ineffective -- as ineffective as you'd expect from a group of level-one NPCs trying to take on player characters.

DM (as Javert): Hello, citizens! Has any of you seen Gurth Doomaxe? I'm trying to arrest him for torturing some civilians.
Gurth Doomaxe: Nope.
DM (as Javert): Hey, you look an awful lot like Gurth Doomaxe. Isn't that axe on your back a... doom axe?
Gurth Doomaxe: Nope.
DM: Roll Bluff.
Gurth Doomaxe: 17.
DM (as Javert): Oh. Well, good thing we cleared that up, then! Let me know if you see him, would you?

This is a funny way to have a criminal justice system without making your players miserable. The problem is that it doesn't act as an effective deterrent -- players will commit more crimes so that they can get more scenes with Javert.

Another option is to give the PCs an NPC patron whose job it is to pay them for completing quests. The NPC patron can periodically remind them that they're not supposed to kill people. Unfortunately, this method still has the same problem: if the PCs commit crimes anyway, you don't have a way to punish them without wrecking your story.


Because portraying a realistic criminal justice system is such a quagmire, I'm hoping that your actual goal is to have a game in which characters aren't evil. This is much easier, because D&D comes with a system for persuading players to do what you want. The system is the experience point award system. If you want players to do something, make sure they know there's an experience award for doing it; if you want them not to do something, make sure they know there'll be an experience penalty.

Player: I want to torture some civilians for fun!
DM: Okay, but remember this is a heroic game. You'll lose 500xp for each civilian you torture, for committing a nonheroic act.

This is great, because punishment for breaking laws is clear and immediate, and it can happen in a way that won't wreck your story. The only problem is that you've traded off verisimilitude: this method doesn't even try to simulate a criminal justice system, it just moves it out-of-game to where you can implement it more easily.

Dan B
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  • This is a good answer (jinx on "what kind of campaign do you actually want"), except for the last bit. A fee is a price; if you don't want people doing it at all, your Say No and Same Page options are much better. – SirTechSpec Jul 05 '16 at 01:36
  • I've experimented with lesser consequences, and I mostly use Just Say No for my games these days. But many DMs feel really awkward about denying player agency in this way, and the experience penalty is a compromise they might find more palatable. – Dan B Jul 05 '16 at 02:28
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SPavel's answer covers the artificial consequences (if you break our laws, we will punish you) quite well, but there are also natural consequences to all this mayhem. I mean, we're not talking selling liquor on Sundays here, right? These are laws that someone put in place because if someone broke them, it would be bad.

So, let the players see what they're doing, directly or through gossip. If they steal - "Gosh, did you hear someone cleaned out old man Bartleby?" Maybe they even see him begging on the streets later. If they nuke a town to kill the orcs in it - maybe they have to go back through on the way to the next thing, and watch the villagers mourn their dead and struggle to rebuild. This should get them to straighten up in a hurry - and if they don't, well, then it looks like you're running an Evil campaign.

Which brings me to my next point, namely, what did everyone sign up for? Being irresponsible with few consequences is a classic RPG motivation. If that's the sort of game people are expecting, they might be taken aback when you start emphasizing that NPC's are people too.

If you know everyone wants to roleplay criminals on the run (or at least, they're willing to take that risk) and you're looking for ways to make that happen, we've got you covered. But if you're not totally certain there's no mismatch of expectations here, nothing beats talking to your players. If you explain that you were hoping to run a more heroic campaign with less wanton violence because the heroes have consciences, and your players agree, their characters will likely follow suit.

SirTechSpec
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Players need to remember that there is always someone more powerful, and sooner or later you will meet them.

If a PC is more powerful than everyone in a town there there is nothing to stop them doing what they want, but someone in the town will get a message to the next, bigger town, which has a more powerful town guard.

If the PCs keep rampaging, then eventually the nation's top elite special forces, which are equally as powerful as high-level PCs, will be sent after them. And after their families and retainers and assets and so on.

If the PCs are more powerful than those the the PCs are probably now the rulers of the land, with all the problems that come with that (for example, some up-and-coming adventurers trashing towns).

Greenstone Walker
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