11

Pretty simple situation. Next week my players are going to be fighting a black abishai. The black abishai has two abilities that concern this. First as an action it can cast darkness, second as a bonus action it can hide when in dim light or darkness. None of my players have the ability to see through magical darkness however the abishai being a devil can.

This is how my assumption of how combat would unfold goes. On the abishai's first turn it will cast darkness heavily obscuring an area from the players, presumably with them inside it. The abishai will then attempt to stay within the darkness fighting the players inside of it using its action to attack and then its bonus action to hide.

This brings me to my question, how do I even run this? The abishai rolls a hide check against the players passive perception? The abishai rolls against an active perception? Do players need to use an action to find the abishai or is it given for free? If we assume the players cannot find the abishai are they allowed to attempt to make attacks against it and hope to hit? Would those attacks simply be at disadvantage or would they automatically fail since they have no idea where the creature is? Will they have to ready actions to fight against it when it reveals itself on an attack? If the devil fails to hide from even one of my players do all players know the location of it or only that player? Players inside the sphere are blinded, but what about players outside the sphere trying to fight something inside it? I'm kind of at a loss on how this works.

Jack
  • 31,646
  • 13
  • 112
  • 200
Nightwing94
  • 169
  • 7

1 Answers1

13

On the Abishai's first turn it will cast darkness heavily obscuring an area from the players, presumably with them inside it. The Abishai will then attempt to stay within the darkness fighting the players inside of it using its action to attack and then its bonus action to hide.

Yes, this is a sound strategy on its part. The only thing I would add is that the Abishai will first attack (action), then Hide (bonus action), then move. Moving out of the reach of its opponents will not provoke an opportunity attack, because the party cannot see it, but it will make it more difficult for them to guess where it is in the darkness.

The Abishai rolls a hide check against the players passive perception? The abishai rolls against an active perception? Do players need to use action to find the abishai or is it given for free?

On its own turn, the Abishai Hides. Its attempt is immediately compared against the Passive Perception of each member of the party, as explained in the Hiding sidebar of the PHB section on Using Ability Scores (Dexterity):

Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score

Depending on its roll, each of the party members might or might not still know where the abishai is, largely based on its noise.

Then, on each of the players' turns, any character that did not already know the location of the Abishai through their Passive Perception, but who wanted to know enough to use their action for the attempt, could attempt to determine its location by using the Search Action to make an active Perception Check, as described in the PHB section on Actions in Combat (Search):

When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check.

Basically if their Passive Perception was not enough to beat the Abishai's Stealth, they can spend an action to attempt an active roll that is higher. (Note that the DM may permit an active roll, but does not have to).

If we assume the players cannot find the abishai are they allowed to attempt to make attacks against it and hope to hit? Would those attacks simply be at disadvantage or would they automatically fail since they have no idea where the creature is?

Characters are permitted to attempt attacks, but they must first guess the square that the abishai is in. If they are incorrect they automatically fail. If they are correct they can attack with disadvantage. This is explained in the PHB section on Unseen Attackers and Targets:

Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

Will they have to ready actions to fight against it when it reveals itself on an attack?
While they do not have to do this, it is certainly one possible strategy. The Abishai will indeed reveal its location when it attacks, again through its sounds (ibid):

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Be aware that readied actions will mean that the martial characters in your party will be at a further disadvantage, in that they will be able to make only one attack rather than their normal number of Extra Attacks.

Also, a readied action can be either a Move or an Attack, but not both. So unless the devil is revealed to be within their melee reach, their readied action will be wasted if they have a melee weapon in hand when the devil reveals itself by attacking. The devil is smart (+1 Int, +3 Wis) and can see perfectly well. Once the party starts using readied actions, it will certainly choose its targets to reveal itself while not in anyone's readied melee reach (if possible).

Another strategy, given the limited size of the darkness, is simply to use their movement until they 'hit' it (they are not permitted to enter a hostile creature's space), and then attack it once found. This is what my party usually does against invisible creatures indoors. You as a DM will need to rule on whether they can orient themselves or conduct a 'square by square' search in darkness.

In comments, @DarthPseudonym recommends that the characters Grapple the devil if they are able to discover its location. This has a number of advantages if it works - by reducing the devil's move to 0, they can hold it in a known location, or even drag it out of the darkness. The devil's best chance to break the grapple is Acrobatics with a Dex+3, and if the party has anyone with an Athletics skill they are likely to be able to beat that, especially since a martial character could get multiple Grapple attempts while the devil can only attempt escape once on its turn. While a great strategy once achieved, the difficult part is getting it to work, since they have to find the devil to begin with, and since readied-action Grapples are limited to a single attempt per action at things already within melee range, and the devil knows this.

If the devil fails to hide from even 1 of my players do all players know the location of it or only that player?

If a character (not a player) knows the location of the devil, that does not automatically communicate that knowledge to the other characters. However, the player could ask to do so. Then it is up to you as a DM to rule on whether such a communication requires an action or not, and how successful it is. "It's over here!" and even "Five (feet) to my left" are short enough to fall within six seconds, but are they understandable if the other party members can't see? Further, if players wish to communicate information gleaned from their Passive Perception success against the devil's Stealth, they might have to wait until their turn to do so.

Players inside the sphere are blinded, but what about players outside the sphere trying to fight something inside it?

See the quotes on attacking Unseen targets, above.

Kirt
  • 50,327
  • 7
  • 121
  • 276
  • Very good answer thank you for all the information. I do have just a few questions that came to mind from your reply if thats okay. If my players try this exact tactics against monsters, are monsters also subject to the "guess the square" rule? And how do I as the dm play that? Should the players keep their position hidden from me or should I try my best not to metagame the monsters when I know where my players are? How do I run it that makes it feel fair for both the players and the monsters in that regard. – Nightwing94 Feb 08 '24 at 10:20
  • @Nightwing94 there are probably a few techniques for a DM, and it may need a separate question, but whenever my NPC's needs to move randomly I roll a d8 and use the top face as a direction arrow. They step up to the number rolled in squares, then swing – SeriousBri Feb 08 '24 at 12:39
  • @Nightwing94 Players don't have a lot of options that let them remain unseen while the enemy is exposed. Greater Invisibility is one, the warlock's Devil's Sight with Darkness can do it too, and there's a few ways to get blindsight, but those are all only good for one player character. It probably isn't going to really come up. – Darth Pseudonym Feb 08 '24 at 14:37
  • 2
    @Nightwing94 By the way, trying to pin down a slippery unseen attacker is a great time to use the Grapple rules. Ready an action to initiate a grapple when the enemy attacks, and since they already used their action to attack at that point, they don't have any way to escape (assuming you win the contest). They can't hide while you're literally touching them, they can't move (so no more guessing squares), and if you're near enough to the edge of the darkness effect you can just drag them out of it. Or you can just clear the area and cast fireball since area effects don't care about darkness. – Darth Pseudonym Feb 08 '24 at 14:38
  • @DarthPseudonym That is a good point about Grappling to pin down the devil and then call your allies over, or drag them out of the darkness. My previous caveat applies about martial characters getting only one grapple attempt on a readied action, though, regardless of Extra Attack. I would change "fireball" to "AoE" since in this particular case black abishai, as devils, are immune to fire damage. – Kirt Feb 08 '24 at 15:40
  • @Nightwing94 While I appreciate the green check, and am glad I could help, generally on the site it is considered good form to wait a while before awarding this, as it might discourage someone else from posting an answer that better solves your problem. As to your follow-up question, see: How does an NPC guess where an invisible PC is when attacking? – Kirt Feb 08 '24 at 15:47
  • @DarthPseudonym Another caveat to the readied grapple is that a readied action can be either a move, or a grapple, but not both. So you could have multiple characters readying to grapple, but if the devil is not within their reach when it reveals itself, they have wasted their action. Once the devil knows (Wis+3, telepathy) that characters are going to use this strategy, it can make sure it attacks only characters that have used their actions rather than those that have readied actions. – Kirt Feb 08 '24 at 16:31
  • You will also need to rule on whether the PCs can see each other as well. They are presumably not taking the Hide action, so RAW they probably can. But if they are blindly attacking random squares, or wandering around until they stumble into something and then attacking, I would say there should be chance for "friendly fire" – thegreatemu Feb 08 '24 at 18:40
  • @thegreatemu If the PC's are not hiding, then they are making noise, and thus they are automatically aware of each other's exact locations on the board. As such, there is no danger of friendly fire, RAW, so you don't have to rule on it. But certainly such a situation strains verisimilitude, and the DM might want to rule on it. A good place to start would be this question on firing into melee. – Kirt Feb 08 '24 at 19:14
  • 3
    My main thought on reading this answer and several of the comments is that if you're not careful, it would be easy to turn this encounter into an evening of frustrating and unfun gaming. You should consider what the purpose of this encounter is, and calibrate the enemy's tactics accordingly. E.g., if the purpose is to force the players to exercise a little creativity and not resort to tried and true methods, then once they have done that you should let their new tactics succeed, even if there is more the enemy could have done to counter them. – Nobody Feb 08 '24 at 19:18
  • 3
    @Nobody Excellent point; certainly the encounter should be considered within the larger context of player abilities / dramatic arc. If the abashai is the climax BBBM of the evil temple, running it as hard as possible is probably a good thing, as frustrating as that may turn out. If it is merely a speed bump / gate guard on the way to something more important, fumbling around in the dark would be decidedly Unfun. If the party is all martials it will be harder than if they have many readied-action ranged cantrips. Maybe it is the turn to shine of the PC with devil's sight or careful spell. – Kirt Feb 08 '24 at 19:31
  • 2
    @Kirt Can you elaborate more on this? "Once the devil knows (Wis+3, telepathy) that characters are going to use this strategy, it can make sure it attacks only characters that have used their actions rather than those that have readied actions." I was under the impression that telepathy meant the creature could speak to another creature in their mind, not that is was equivalent to mind reading? Also sorry I didn't know about the green check mark stuff. I rarely post here ever. – Nightwing94 Feb 08 '24 at 22:14
  • As far as my party goes, I have 4 level 5 players. A druid, a rogue, a sorcerer, and a paladin/sorc multi. This fight is meant to be the end boss in the current dungeon they are running and the first time they are running into the greater theme of the campaign which involves Tiamat, since this is their first encounter with an Abishai and Tiamat I wanted it to be more intense. – Nightwing94 Feb 08 '24 at 22:17
  • 1
    @Nightwing94 I'm with you on the telepathy question. Telepathy is functionally a language, it isn't detect thoughts. – Darth Pseudonym Feb 09 '24 at 03:05
  • @Nightwing94 Sorry about that telepathy, I was simply trying to use it as a mark of a creature that is intelligent, skilled at communication, and used to dealing with the thought processes of others. I did not mean to imply that the devil could detect the pc's plans by forcefully reading their thoughts. Your party actually looks well equipped to deal with this boss, depending on their cantrip selection. Sorcs might have ray of frost as readied cantrips - devil has cold resist but there is a lot of value in reducing its move in the darkness. The druid can stand outside the darkness and... – Kirt Feb 09 '24 at 06:39
  • ...have a readied thorn whip to pull the devil out of the darkness. The rogue is the one who is going to be able to use readied actions the least, unless it can find a counter-acting source of advantage to offset the disadvantage and use sneak attack with a flanker. – Kirt Feb 09 '24 at 06:42
  • Yeah I'm not too concerned about their ability to handle it. It has 58 hp as a standard and my rogue has sharpshooter and the paladin can smite. A few lucky hits and this thing is dead. – Nightwing94 Feb 09 '24 at 08:27