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Can a Rogue Inquisitive use their passive Insight with Insightful Fighting?

Insightful Fighting short version: as a bonus action, make a Wis (Insight) check contested by target's Cha (Deception) check. If you succeed you can deal Sneak Attack damage vs target for 1 minute or till Insightful Fighting is used on another target.

Passive Wis (Insight) = 10 + Wis mod + Proficiency Bonus if any

I don't really see any reason why you can't, specially if you have Expertise (2x Proficiency Bonus) with Insight. I know this would be useless later, but for now at lower levels, it seems viable to do so. My current Inquisitive has a passive Insight of 17 ([Proficiency Bonus x2] 4 + Wis mod 3 + 10. I just would like to if it a legal to do.

Thomas Markov
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Jhyarelle Silver
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2 Answers2

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This is not the right use for a passive check

Passive Checks (p. 175, PHB) defines when to use a passive check

A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.

Here, you actively want to do something, its not the DM who wants to secretly determine if you hit or not. Also, the attack is not a task done repeatedly, in the sense described above -- that you try something for a longer time frame again and again, until you hopefully succeed. In combat you determine the outcome for each attack separately. Your action is not a passive action, it is active. This is not what the passive check is for, so you have to roll an normal check for the contest.

Nobody the Hobgoblin
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    Also worth noting that allowing "passive" checks in this case would almost fully negate the power of the 11th level Rogue ability Reliable Talent. – biziclop Jul 24 '23 at 10:59
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    If the idea of passive checks is applied to insight, why wouldn't it act as a floor in the way it does for perception? https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/48281/does-passive-perception-score-supersede-the-result-of-a-lower-active-perception – Dan Jurgella Jul 25 '23 at 04:24
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    @DanJurgella Because that guidance is not good? – Yakk Jul 25 '23 at 13:44
  • @Yakk Which guidance do you disagree with? That passive checks be applied to insight? Or that passive checks act as a floor? Or maybe the idea of passive checks acting as a floor should only apply to perception? There are a few things that can be disagreed with here. – Dan Jurgella Jul 26 '23 at 01:26
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    @DanJurgella I think this is an excellent question, and the space in the comments is entirely inadequate to do it justice. I therefore put my thoughts about it in a new answer on the question you linked. – Nobody the Hobgoblin Jul 26 '23 at 09:51
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    @DanJurgella You to linked guidance on how to use passive perception. Then asked why you wouldn't apply it to insight. I stated that the guidance you linked on how to use passive perception is not good guidance, which I believe is a sufficient argument asto why passive insight shouldn't be used as a floor to insight, thus answering your question. This is not a place to argue about that guidance - I'm just answering your question why your argument isn't a slam-dunk. – Yakk Jul 26 '23 at 13:03
  • @KorvinStarmast Yes, I looked at that but unfortunately the Contest rule does not say it needs to be an actively rolled check, and there is precendent for contests with a passive check, for example Mage Hand Legerdemain which says "You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature’s Wisdom (Perception) check." Here, I would think the Perception check can be a passvive check if the creature is not activly trying to oppose the caster, a classical pick pocket situation. – Nobody the Hobgoblin Aug 08 '23 at 14:24
  • @NobodytheHobgoblin OK, I'll remove my comment and post an answer. – KorvinStarmast Aug 08 '23 at 14:30
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No; this is like a Contest - opposed ability checks

In Chapter 7 of the PHB (p. 174) an opposed ability check is described under "Contests." In these situations, one creature attempts to do something (ability check) while being opposed by another creature (ability check). A very common example of this is the Grapple during combat.

The mechanical impact of this rogue feature - Wisdom (Insight) opposed by Charisma (Deception) - is a Contest. Treat it as such, per the Chapter 7 section on Contests.

Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to their efforts.

(Which ability checks are used is spelled out in the feature description, Wis(Perception) versus Cha(Deception).

They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or prevents the other one from succeeding.

Successful check by the rogue yields the desired the result, failure does not, and a tie goes to the rogue's opponent.

If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest. Thus, one contestant might win the contest by default. If two characters tie in a contest to snatch a ring off the floor, neither character grabs it. In a contest between a monster trying to open a door and an adventurer trying to keep the door closed, a tie means that the door remains shut.

KorvinStarmast
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