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In the old vampire (up to V20), the abiltiies of Auspex,... are a bit limited. I've got a few players that try to hide their clan. What options are there for others to find out what clan they truly belong to (thus abilities and actions)?

Others is mostly npc's. And its about vampires, but also other creatures, what options they have to find out the clan of a vampire.

VLAZ
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Thomas E.
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  • "find out what clan they truly belong to (thus abilities and actions)?" that's a bit of an XY problem to solve. Finding the clan of a vampire tends to leave you with very little idea of their abilities or what actions they would likely make (e.g., due to allegiance or anything similar). A Gangrel might not have picked up any Protean. But might have learned Celerity and/or Potence. A Toreador might have learned Animalism. The older the vampire, the more likely they are to have picked up other Disciplines. And allegiances can shift easily, as well. – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 08:20
  • As an example: I had once played a high-age Nosferatu. While they had reached obfuscate 5, they also had access to about 8 other disciplines, 6 of them non-clan disciplines, and several of them at 3. – Trish Aug 17 '22 at 12:08

1 Answers1

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Auspex

Auspex can be used to pre-sort beings you meet at rank 2: Aura Perception 1. The visible Auras tell quite clearly into what category the target belongs:

  • Vampire - Aura colors are pale
  • Ghoul - Pale blotches in the aura
  • Magic - Use Myriad sparkles in aura
  • Werebeast - Bright, vibrant aura
  • Ghost - Weak, intermittent aura
  • Faerie - Rainbow highlights in aura 1

However, Auspex 2 does not offer a magical lie detector, and the use as one is explicitly disclaimed by the rules:

Note that it is nearly impossible to determine with certainty if a particular character is lying or not with this power – vampires are inherently deceitful by nature, but even mortals might react with anxiety to questions while still being truthful. 1

It might however rarely help to identify Malkavians and Diablerists on its own: the former because they occasionally show up as Psychotic, the latter because of the black stripes. Not all Malkavians will show psychotic at all times, and there are other psychotic vampires, but it can be an aid.

Auspex 3, The Spirit’s Touch, can be used perversely to gain information too: if they roll 5 or more successes they know literally everything they want to know about the person that handled the object. This includes the clan of a vampire.

Blood Sorcery

The Path of Blood 2 starts with "A Taste of Blood", which allows asking questions about a person in question the user has a single drop of blood from. Generation, current blood pool, if they are a vampire... and even the Clan of a vampire are things that can be asked for as information.

This is pretty much the most basic blood sorcery, most Tremere chantries have at least several apprentices that can do this and even the Assamite Vizirs know this trick, old Tzimisce can use it, Kiasyd might know of the trick... pretty much any vampire with Thaumaturgy has access to the Path of Blood.

Dominate

The basic trick of Dominate - Command 3 - is to force a one-word command. This can be done by first posing a question, and if the answer does not come, the command is Answer! - they have to give an answer now, though not necessarily the one the asker wants.

Dominate 4 - Conditioning 4 - is able to erode someone's personality away and make them a servile person. Once a master Dominator had the neonate in their claws for a couple of weeks, they have spilled everything, and come out as a totally different person - broken and enslaved if used by a particularly cruel master.

Presence

Dominate 4 is crude, but Presence 3 - Entrancement 5 - makes the target by itself willing to spill the beans just to be allowed to serve them. They'd even willingly take on a blood bond to the entrancing vampire, so telling who they are and such is the least.

Rituals

There's a Rank 4 Rite called Bone of Lies 6. It enchants an item and whoever holds it can't lie: no power can stop them from blurting out the truth if they thought of telling a lie.

The Traditions and Lex Talionis

Besides those tricks, there is simply the danger of law of retribution (sometimes lex talonis - law of claws) being called upon an unrepentant vampire that lies to a prince once to many. Lex Talionis allows a prince or other domain holder to declare someone an outcast and send them packing - or even put them to death if they don't comply with the other demands of the Camarilla. Wait, you don't know that term? Maybe The sixth Tradition: Destruction is better known to you:

The Sixth Tradition: Destruction

The Blood Hunt — the Lextalionis — is the Princely decree that declares another vampire persona non grata. The right of Princes (or “elders,” depending upon the interpretation of the Tradition) to call the Blood Hunt effectively forfeits the hunted Kindred’s unlife [...] 7

Lying about your clan or trying to hide it is a violation of the 2nd Tradition (Domain), as it shows absolutely no respect to the holder of the domain. The allowance to stay in a town under the 5th Tradition (Hospitality) hinges on the vampire presenting themselves with their proper clan and all.

And violating both of these can be used to cast them out of town - or in extreme cases call for Lex Talionis and the final death of the vampire.

Other Creatures?

  • Garou and the Bête don't care for the clan of the vampire. If Sense Wyrm triggers on them, then they are to be shredded. If they tell the Werewolf, that they are Vampires, they are cut up. Sense Truth/Truth of Gaia is very proliferated among them. Lying to those is really hard.

  • Mages don't care for the clan of the Vampire most of the time. They are the raw material for lawn furniture. Otherwise: Mind 1 is enough to detect lies, Mind 2 allows to read the mind to a low degree, and starting at Mind 3, he can outright start to claw the truth from the head of any being. With time, they can read who was your sire. With Prime/Matter, they might spy vampire clan and abilities.

  • Changelings/Kithain can often notice the mere presence of a Vampire that's no longer a Neonate because Vampires have typically moderate to very high Banality stats. Further, it's a simple roll on Wits+Kenning for them to detect a Vampire as what they are.

1 - V20 p.135/136
2 - V20 p.213
3 - V20 p.152
4 - V20 p.154
5 - V20 p.195
6 - V20 p.237
7 - V20 p.22-24

Trish
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    "It does however help to identify Malkavians [...] because they are showing up as Psychotic" non-Malkavians can also have derangements. Moreover, Dementation would often push others into madness. So, the presence of a derangement is not a definite indicator that a vampire is a Malkavian – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 07:30
  • "Dominate 4 - Conditioning 4 - is able to erode someone's personality away and make them a servile person." I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on Kindred – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 07:31
  • "It does however help to identify Malkavians [...] because they are showing up as Psychotic" also relevant - not all Malkavians are psychotic. Derangements can vary wildly and the "loud loony Malk" is not an accurate stereotype to apply to the entire clan. For example, Dr. Netchurch from fluff will not show up as psychotic but calm and collected. Maybe a bit cold and detached. – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 08:29
  • @VLAZ It may help, but does not guarantee to identify Malkavians. Its main relevancy is an intrusion free "is a vamp or not". As for Dominate 4: nothing in the text excludes vampires like it is done for many other powers. – Trish Aug 17 '22 at 08:54
  • I just double checked: there is particular phrasing in Revised which suggested that Conditioning is used against mortals. It doesn't specifically say it's not valid against Kindred, though. In V20 the text remains pretty much exactly the same but the word "mortal" has been removed - probably to remove the ambiguity. – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 09:02
  • As a further clarification to "psychotic" - it's not always on. Seeing auras shows the current emotional state of somebody. A Malkavian may very well suffer from schizophrenia and or any other mental conditions that would occasionally send into a psychotic episode. But that is not necessarily going to be their permanent state. A Malkavian may be lucid with intermittent psychotic episodes. A bipolar one might slide from manic to depressed and vice versa but that transition might take days or weeks. And any other vampire might just be on drugged blood and thus show up as psychotic. – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 09:22
  • The more I think about it, the less and less reliable the aura is. Even if it detects something that might be a psychological problem, it need not have even found a Malkavian. And it would not detect many forms of madness, either. It's a very weak indicator for a vampire's lineage. – VLAZ Aug 17 '22 at 09:22
  • @VLAZ Indeed, Auspex 1 is nigh impossible to be used definitively, but OP thought it does, that's why I even discuss it - it's auspex 3 that allows for a master to rip out secrets from the pen he pulled out of his chest with anger after the victim of Dominate 4 was told to shove it into the chest. – Trish Aug 17 '22 at 09:26
  • For mages - while most will probably not care about vampires, they are a diverse sort. Some might care about clans. Hermetics still have a beef with the Tremere. Some mages might work closely with vampires for other reaonos, too. Very few have the in-depth knowledge of vampire society and that there are even different "clans". However, if a mage does know that, perhaps a Life/Matter/Entropy effect will be able to analyse the vampire's physiology. A technologically-minded mage might do a tissue sample analysis, for example. – VLAZ Aug 19 '22 at 06:18
  • Regarding "Lex Talionis", "talionis" is the root of the English word "retaliation". It means "like, similar", so "law of like", or "law of like for like", basically "an eye for an eye". – From Sep 06 '22 at 06:22
  • Regarding Auspex and aura, pale colors with sparkles is a pretty good sign of a Tremere, though exceptions do exist. At higher levels, though, disciplines do tend to become pretty personal. It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibilities for an elder, much less a methuselah, to possess a unique Auspex power, coupled with aeons of experience in interpreting it, enabling accurate reading of clan. Lie to the Prince about your clan at your own peril. – From Sep 06 '22 at 06:29
  • One addition; Malkavians. It's not at all improper, though not exactly covered by detailed rules, for them to receive impressions and ideas about other vampires from their insight. This should never be reliable, but may lead to revelations; even if the Malkavian doesn't fully understand the insight, calling a supposed Brujah "child of Saulot" (for a very obvious example) at the Prince's court might lead to someone else picking up on the hint. – From Sep 06 '22 at 06:37
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    @From Sparkles also exist with Assamite Sorcerers, Kholdunic Tzimisce, Kiasysd, some Samedi... Thaumaturgy is far more widespread than you think. As PCs generally are kept at lower than 5 in disciplines, I did not discuss the 6+ "hyperpowers*, which are generally "ST, do what you want" anyway. – Trish Sep 06 '22 at 06:38
  • @Trish Absolutely, which is why I called it a "pretty good" sign, and not a "sure" sign. In the base game, you're playing within the Camarilla, and Thaumaturgy is (generally) the domain of the Tremere there. – From Sep 06 '22 at 06:40