Can you Catapult another spell's point?

Question

The synergy that I want to understand is if you can catapult an object that is the point of a spell, like 'Cloud of Daggers' on your enemy.

Find any object near your enemy or throw anything at him: e.g Pebble, Dagger, Dirty underwear, etc.
Cast 'Cloud of Daggers' on that object.
Enemy is sh*tting bricks, because of Daggers cutting him and he runs away.
Cast 'Catapult' on the object that is the 'Point' of your spell and launches it, together with the spell, at the enemy again.
Repeat step 3.

I've roamed the whole wilderness of the internet, but could not find anything better than the link below.

Can Catapult be used on Delayed Blast Fireball?

This trick, definitely, might work with 'Darkness', because the spell description mentions it.

So! My reasoning is this: If it were to make a parallel to our real world, then The Point of a spell, is something like a source of your magic. Just like The Shell of the Smoke Grenade is the source of the Smoke. Or like The Speaker of your headset, is the source of the sound.

This means throwing the source - it takes along the effect.

Please share your wisdom here. Thanks in advance.

P.S. Below you can find quotes of the spell descriptions.

Darkness

If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it.

Catapult

Choose one object weighing 1 to 5 pounds within range that isn’t being worn or carried. The object flies in a straight line up to 90 feet in a direction you choose before falling to the ground, stopping early if it impacts against a solid surface. If the object would strike a creature, that creature must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the object strikes the target and stops moving. When the object strikes something, the object and what it strikes each take 3d8 bludgeoning damage.

Cloud of Daggers

You fill the air with spinning daggers in a cube 5 feet on each side, centered on a point you choose within range. A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there.

Nobody the Hobgoblin · Accepted Answer · 2022-02-14T23:11:59.317

8

It doesn't work this way

The PHB on p.201 says about targeting spells:

Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.

That means if you pick a "point in space" that happens to be on an object, and then throw that object, the point remains where it is. It does not move with the object. For that to happen the origin of the spell would need to be the object.

Delayed Blast Fireball is special in that it allows you to create a pebble that can be thrown, and that then can explode into a fireball. Likewise, Darkness (as you cite) explicitly states that you can pick a point on an object, and the darkness will move with it. Cloud of Daggers has no such language, and therefore does not do that.

Spells only do what they say they do.

edited Feb 14 '22 at 23:11

answered Feb 14 '22 at 23:08

Nobody the Hobgoblin

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Following your logic, if I cast a spell on a ship, then the spell moves along with water or the planet? – Feb 14 '22 at 23:11
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@Eugene, I think this is a valid objection but D&D is not a physics simulation about relativity. Likewise, if the planet the PCs are on is moving, will the area stay absolutely in place, while the planet flies on? Nope. For practical play, if you cast cloud of daggers on a ship, and the ship is what is drawn on your battlemap, that is where the cloud will be for the rest of the fight. It won't move relative to the area you play in. – Nobody the Hobgoblin Feb 14 '22 at 23:17
Ok, good! Now that you confirmed it. What about flying carpet? – Feb 14 '22 at 23:18
Even with the link you posted, there is no answer about the spell Point. – Feb 14 '22 at 23:20
That's probably worth its own question - at least I could not find an answer in a quick search but I am also new here. If the carpet is moving around on the battlemap with some PC on it, then I would leave the cloud back where it was cast. But that's just my 0.02 – Nobody the Hobgoblin Feb 14 '22 at 23:22
The link it for the "spells only do what they say" origin. It is an oft-cited principle around here. Have to go to sleep now. I find the carpet question interesting, maybe you really post it as a separate one? – Nobody the Hobgoblin Feb 14 '22 at 23:23
Thanks. I'm also new here. So far, common sense was an obvious answer to me, but with this one I'm really curious what the greater minds would say :D – Feb 14 '22 at 23:23
Related: Can I move the cloud of daggers around – Nobody the Hobgoblin Feb 14 '22 at 23:24
:D that's a good one! But you don't move the spell, you move its source! – Feb 14 '22 at 23:25
@Eugene I'm pretty sure ship question was already asked here, in context of the immovable rod. Consensus was that if it's big enough to have own map and we are playing on that map, it is the only sensible ruling that it's immovable related to the map, and there always be edge cases. You can ask ship + cloud of daggers question, probably won't be an exact duplicate and even if it would, well written duplicates are actually a good thing here as they make content easier to find. – Mołot Feb 15 '22 at 00:13
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A useful point of comparison would be the Darkness and Daylight spells, which can specifically have the "point" be an object and then the effect moves with the object, but it requires significant text to give it that ability. – Darth Pseudonym Feb 15 '22 at 04:17
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Related: What happens when an Immovable Rod is activated while in a vehicle? - Thanks to Mołot – Nobody the Hobgoblin Feb 15 '22 at 06:33
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Somewhat related on the discussion of relative motion and framing: Is Tiny Hut relative to ground or surface that it's on? – NotArch Feb 15 '22 at 14:30
@Eugene: An unofficial tweet by rules designer Jeremy Crawford, on the exact subject of your first comment: "The rules of D&D don't account for planetary rotation. If such things are a concern at your table, DM, I leave them in your capable hands." – V2Blast Feb 17 '22 at 21:18

Can you Catapult another spell's point?

1 Answers1

It doesn't work this way

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