Can a Way of the Astral Self monk grapple with its Arms of the Astral Self?

Question

In the Unearthed Arcana version of the Way of the Astral Self, the monk's Astral Arms were treated as monk weapons.

Under that wording, the monk probably couldn't grapple/shove with them because weapon reach and the reach of the character's hand that could make the grapple/shove are different things.

That is, it's hard to see how you could grapple with the end of a polearm, for example (through a lenient DM might allow a shove).

However, in the official release, the wording was changed then from monk weapons to unarmed strikes:

You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes.

When you make an unarmed strike with the arms on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.

Under this revised wording, it seems like the monk could grapple/shove with its Astral Arms.

But can it?

Thomas Markov · Accepted Answer · 2020-11-21T20:57:48.473

An unarmed strike is not a grapple or shove.

The Astral Arms ability says:

When you make an unarmed strike with the arms on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.

An unarmed strike is defined as:

Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.

This is the only time your reach is extended. Grapple and Shove are not unarmed strikes, so your reach is not extended for a grapple or shove.

The ability description tells us everything we can do.

Having established that an unarmed strike is not a shove, nor is it a grapple, we review what we are able to do with the Astral Arms. The ability description says:

While the spectral arms are present, you gain the following benefits:

You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws.

You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes.

When you make an unarmed strike with the arms on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.

The unarmed strikes you make with the arms can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls, and their damage type is force.

Nowhere is it stated that we may grapple or shove, only that we may make unarmed strikes with the arms, which is not grappling or shoving.

@JonAristotle Theability description tells you everything you can do with the arms: "While the spectral arms are present, you gain the following benefits: [...] You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes." It doesn't say you gain the benefits of grappling with the arms or more creatures, so you don't gain those benefits. — Thomas Markov, Nov 21 '20 at 20:45

score 1 · Answer 2 · answered Nov 21 '20 at 20:55

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Technically, it's a yes, but the +5-foot reach doesn't apply.

The answer is a yes, if we simply look and disregard the benefits that you've shown. If we try to look at the other benefit of the feature, other than those two, one of which says:

• You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws.

Grapple and shove use Strength checks (specifically, Athletics). This benefit assumes that we can freely do it with the Astral Arms.

But,

if you asked that with respect to the wording, then the answer is using your Astral Arms for anything other than unarmed strike won't give you the bonus 5 feet range.

answered Nov 21 '20 at 20:55

Tren

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I disagree with this. Rules are generally 'as is' and the only thing specified you can do with the arms is 'make an unarmed strike'. The quote you posted applies to the Monk's strength checks and saving throws in general. – ChiMo Nov 26 '20 at 04:14
@ChiMo ...And grapple and shove are still under those Strength checks. Your "applies to...in general" seems like you're only referring to out-of-combat ability checks. Grapple and shove is under the Attack chapter of PHB instead of Strength Checks chapter, and this is because they are assumed to appear more in combat, but that doesn't mean they can't be done on non-combat roleplays. – Tren Nov 26 '20 at 23:10
Of course grappling can be done in combat. What I'm saying is the astral arms can only make unarmed strikes. Grappling and shoving are not unarmed strikes but 'special melee attacks' that use the attack action. – ChiMo Nov 28 '20 at 23:04
Then why did they bother pointing out the Strength checks and saves? Grapples and shoves uses Strength checks even though they take up the attack action. They are part of the attack action but they don't use attack rolls, and if they do, then that's the time they can't use Astral Arms for grappling. And it says right on PHB that they make checks, and also they would specify it if they can't be used for grappling and shoving. – Tren Nov 29 '20 at 08:26
And to quote sage advice on ability checks on https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/ability-check:
"When you make a Strength (Athletics) check to grapple or shove someone, are you making an attack roll? Again, the answer is no. That check is an ability check, so game effects tied to attack rolls don’t apply to it.

Going back to an earlier question, the hex spell could be used to diminish a grappler’s effectiveness. And if the grappler’s target is under the effect of the Dodge action, that action doesn’t inhibit the grapple, since Dodge doesn’t affect ability checks."
– Tren Nov 29 '20 at 08:30
While sage advice is only advice and not official ruling, RAI you can say that hex affects grapples and shoves but not attacks. It is still dependent on your DM to have the final ruling. – Tren Nov 29 '20 at 08:34
OK, even if a Unarmed Strike could replace a grapple, grappling needs an empty hand. Astral arms are not hands and are nowhere stated that can be used like them. However the strength bonus listed will still benefit any strength check made with their normal hands. – ChiMo Nov 30 '20 at 03:03
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ChiMo You are able to control the arms appearance which includes hands is desired – Michelle Sims Feb 23 '21 at 08:40
Michelle Sims is right. And even if you didn't, say, voluntarily and willingly control the spectral arms to have a hand, its common sense that those arms would at least grow a hand. Just because it only mentioned "arms" and no "hands" doesn't mean it can't have. The rules shouldn't be regarded as absolute, but only as guidelines. – Tren Apr 29 '21 at 15:34

score 0 · Answer 3 · answered Mar 25 '24 at 12:54

I disagree with the approved answer and as this is the first link to show up on google, I think the discussion is still relevant.

PHB p195

When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.

The reach for the unarmed strike you replaced is 5 feet greater, so the grapple will be within that extended reach too.

I figure the argument is, that you never execute the unarmed strike itself, which is fairly reasonable. I just found it incomprehensible how the counter argument did not come up on this threat, as this is more than unclear and DMs that are unsure about allowing an extra 5 ft range on grapples should take this into consideration.

Also, for said DMs, Bugbears get that added bonus anyways. If you allow those at your table and your player is not stacking both things, there is no real balancing issue imposed in the first place by allowing the extra range.

But . . . Astral Arms says only says the reach is extended for unarmed strikes. Grapples aren't unarmed strikes. And I'm afraid your paragraph "I figure the argument is . . . " isn't clear, at least to me; maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Your last point, that it might be fun to allow, is a good point, and a reason a DM might want to consider it, but it doesn't make it RAW. — Jack, Mar 25 '24 at 14:42
Also, Welcome to the stack Demonic99! Take the tour when you have a moment, and feel free to peruse the help center for more in-depth info about the site. — Jack, Mar 25 '24 at 14:42