Does the Iron Flask let you Order the Creature Back in Without a Save?

Question

So I have an Iron Flask in my current campaign, and we happened to find out that it contains Tiamat. We released Tiamat to have a conversation, where she threatened to eat me at the end of the hour.

Since it didn't directly lead to her death, I ordered her back in the Flask, but am not sure if that's okay? If you order the creature in, do they still get to make the save?

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Dale M · Answer 1 · 2020-08-01T03:05:29.273

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A creature can’t voluntarily enter an Iron Flask

You can use an action to speak the flask's Command Word, targeting a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you.

That’s the only way creatures can get into the flask. So, the problem is not that ordering her in is an illegal order, it’s an impossible order.

What troubles me is threatening to kill you later doesn’t sound very friendly to me. Of course, she is totally going to eat you, but saying so isn’t friendly.

... release the creature the flask contains. The creature is friendly to you and your companions for 1 hour and obeys your commands for that duration.

What’s really puzzling is how she got in there in the first place. The DC is 17 and she has a +17 Wisdom save - it’s impossible for her to fail. Of course, the more immediate problem for you is how you are going to get her in now.

edited Aug 01 '20 at 03:05

answered Aug 01 '20 at 01:38

Dale M

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Maybe that's friendly for Tiamat ;P Or, more likely, like many people who aren't clueless, Tiamat's trained herself to respond in unusual ways to particular relational states as a countermeasure to hostile magic. – Please stop being evil Aug 01 '20 at 05:07
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Some spells, like bane lower enemy saves. – Please stop being evil Aug 01 '20 at 05:10
@Pleasestopbeingevil her Charisma save is better than her Wisdom so how do you get her to fail the Bane save? – Dale M Aug 01 '20 at 05:55
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No it's not-- her Cha is higher than Wis but she doesn't add proficiency (+9) to Cha saves, just Str, Dex, Wis so Cha save is 'only' +9 2) Because Bane's save is a spell DC save and therefore not limited to being '17' no matter what. I mean, a 20th level Cleric of Bahamut could totally have a DC 24 save DC 3) Bane's an example of the kind of spell-- Synaptic Static is probably best, since it subtracts a higher die size, targets her weakest save (Int, though it is still +8, only 1 less than Dex), and is thematically appropriate because many heads.

Please stop being evil

Aug 01 '20 at 06:23

score 2 · Answer 2 · answered Aug 01 '20 at 01:24

Creatures can't just willingly enter the flask. If you want it to enter the flask, use the flask on the creature to trap the creature again.

An action in 5e only takes 6 seconds, so if the creature succeeds the save, just try again. You could even pass the flask from party member to party member to try multiple times every 6 seconds.

Ton Day · Answer 3 · 2020-08-12T02:16:55.403

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Creatures cannot voluntarily enter an Iron Flask

Dale's probably right; it's very dubious that any creature could voluntarily enter an Iron Flask of its own accord. Ordering the recently-ex-occupant not to resist your attempt to put it back won't work either. This order isn't 'likely to result in [the creature's] death', so the Iron Flask rules don't forbid it. But the rules around saving throws have been clarified by the designers to not allow a creature to voluntarily fail any saving throw.

If they could that would be broken

It's broken because it's completely unrestricted. It's like wishing for more wishes. You can order the creature around for an hour - and its attitude towards you is fixed at 'friendly' so it won't even resent you. At least, not until that part of the enchantment wears off.

Which it won't, because all you'd need to do is order it back in the flask.

There's no cooldown saying, for example, 'a particular creature cannot be forced into any particular Iron Flask more than once, ever', or 'for at least 24 hours after its release', or any such restriction whatsoever. If a creature could voluntarily enter the flask, then once a creature is inside one, it becomes a permanent thrall.

There's also no restriction that a creature has to be in the bottle for a minimum length of time before the compulsion to obey takes hold. It serves you for an hour, then an action puts it back in, then another action lets it back out again whereupon it serves you for another hour.

edited Aug 12 '20 at 02:16

answered Aug 01 '20 at 02:32

Ton Day

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Where in the rules does it say you can voluntarily waive a saving throw? – Dale M Aug 01 '20 at 03:07
I'm pretty sure, as @dalem suggests you can't voluntarily fail saves. There may even be a question on the stack about it. – AncientSwordRage Aug 01 '20 at 10:09
"A saving throw--also called a save--represents an attempt to resist a spell, a trap, a poison, a disease, or a similar threat. You don’t normally decide to make a saving throw; you are forced to make one because your character or monster is at risk of harm. "
That seems pretty clear to me. A character is only forced to make a saving throw insofar as they actually attempt to resist. "Forced" in the sense of "on pain of suffering whatever the effect is".
– Ton Day Aug 01 '20 at 10:49
The definition of 'saving throw' also refers to effects "allowing" a save. – Ton Day Aug 01 '20 at 10:52
However one of the designers apparently explicitly answered this question here: https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/708009718757720064 - so never mind that this isn't what the wording actually says (because I looked at said wording before I posted my answer) clearly it was errata'ed. I'm not sure if that means the answer should be deleted (since it's wrong) or left as is (to document that no, this doesn't work this way). – Ton Day Aug 01 '20 at 10:57
“you are forced to make one” - you can’t choose not to. – Dale M Aug 01 '20 at 21:18
As the others have said, there's a Q&A about it here: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? There was nothing to errata, as there was never a rule that allowed it. As your earlier quote itself says, saving throws are forced in response to something, not something the character chooses to do (or not do). There are situations where it may make sense for the DM to allow a character to fail even if the spell doesn't say so (e.g. choosing not to get out of something's way), but that's just DM fiat. – V2Blast Aug 07 '20 at 07:27

Does the Iron Flask let you Order the Creature Back in Without a Save?

3 Answers3

A creature can’t voluntarily enter an Iron Flask

Creatures cannot voluntarily enter an Iron Flask

If they could that would be broken