5

I am currently mastering a game of Pathfinder with a few friends, and a situation occured during a game.

The cavalier which has a few mounted feats (including ride-by attack), charges.

He asked if he could charge two squares away from the target and hit him with the reach of the lance.

I simply didn't know what to answer at the time so I allowed it, but it then seemed a bit off. What do you think?

I'll try to be clearer by describing

\begin{array}{c|c} \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} \\ \hline \text{S} & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \text{A} & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \text{E} \\ \hline \\ \hline &&&&&& \text{X} \\ \hline \\ \end{array}

S is the starting point of the charge, he wanted to know if he could hit X when he is on A with the reach of his lance and stop his charge on E, with ride-by attack.

KRyan
  • 350,913
  • 58
  • 915
  • 1,459
B-right
  • 71
  • 3
  • RE: "He asked if he could charge two squares away from the target and hit him with the reach of the lance." To be clear, he wants to charge at the target and strike with his lance using the lance's reach instead of attacking while adjacent to the target. Is that accurate? – Hey I Can Chan Mar 26 '20 at 02:52
  • (Pathfinder mounted combat is at least as broken as 3.5 mounted combat, the 3.5 revision doing a particular number on the Ride-by Attack feat that Pathfinder inherited. D&D designer Skip WIlliams's opinion on the change to charges that made the Ride-by Attack feat worthless can be read in the 3.5 Main FAQ (95) that originally appeared in Dragon #319 (95). Pathfinder helps some by opting to ignore the 3.5 errata that forbids an overrun on a charge, but it's not enough.) – Hey I Can Chan Mar 26 '20 at 05:58
  • Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the [tour] if you haven't already, and check out the [help] for more guidance. – V2Blast Mar 26 '20 at 06:59

1 Answers1

5

The rules say

You must move at least [...] and may move up to [...] directly toward the designated opponent. [...]

[...] You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

(Movement During a Charge)

Ride-by Attack doesn’t change this—Ride-by Attack allows you to continue moving after a charge, but you still have to execute the charge by following all the usual rules first, and that includes this one.

There is a bit of ambiguity on what “directly toward” means here, but my view here is that the later rules about moving to the closest square from which you can attack the opponent is the rules’ definition of “directly toward.” It’s possible to use other definitions, but 1. that involves speculation, since we don’t have any more to go on, and 2. the most “obvious” definition available, in my mind, makes Ride-by Attack useless,1 which explains why they felt the need to “expand upon” that phrase with the more detailed rule in the next paragraph. So I basically rule that as long as the “closest square” rule is obeyed, you are moving “directly toward” and we don’t have to worry about that any longer.

Which means that with the cavalier starting at \$\text S\$, and the enemy being at \$\text X\$, there is a limited number of squares the cavalier can move to and still have it count as a charge—he must choose the closest square from which he can reach the target (or choose one of the closest squares, if there is a tie). The square \$\text A\$ in your diagram is not that square.

The lance has 10-ft. reach, so the cavalier must move to the square 10 feet from \$\text X\$ that is closest to \$\text S\$. In this diagram, the top number is the distance the cavalier travels, while the bottom number is the distance from \$\text X\$. Importantly, 10-ft. reach is slightly different from 10-ft. movement, so the bottom number is going to be in terms of reach, not movement. So we need the square with a 10 on the bottom and the lowest number on top:

\begin{array}{c|c} \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} \\ \hline \text S & ^{\phantom{0}5}_{30} & ^{10}_{25} & ^{15}_{20} & ^{20}_{10\rlap{^*}} & ^{25}_{10} & ^{30}_{10} \\ \hline ^{\phantom{0}5}_{30} & ^{\phantom{0}5}_{25} & ^{10}_{20} & ^{15}_{15} & ^{20}_{10} & ^{25}_{\phantom{0}5} & ^{30}_{\phantom{0}5} \\ \hline ^{10}_{30} & ^{10}_{25} & ^{15}_{20} & ^{20}_{15} & ^{25}_{10} & ^{30}_{\phantom{0}5} & \text X \\ \hline \\ \end{array}

\$^*\$ indicates the square that is different for a reach weapon than movement.

As you can see from this, there are five squares from which you can attack \$\text X\$ with a 10-ft. reach weapon:

\begin{array}{c|c} \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} \\ \hline \text S &&&& ^{20}_{10\rlap{^*}} & ^{25}_{10} & ^{30}_{10} \\ \hline &&&& ^{20}_{10} \\ \hline &&&& ^{25}_{10} && \text X \\ \hline \\ \end{array}

And two of these are tied for being closest to \$\text S\$:

\begin{array}{c|c} \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} \\ \hline \text S &&&& ^{20}_{10\rlap{^*}} & & \text A \\ \hline &&&& ^{20}_{10} \\ \hline &&&&&& \text X \\ \hline \\ \end{array}

So the cavalier could not have attacked from \$\text A\$, which was 30 feet away from his initial position, since he had options that were 20 feet away. He can, however, choose either of these squares, which means the upper one—two squares to the left of \$\text A\$—was an option, which would have allowed him to continue moving, in a straight line, to \$\text E\$, like so:

\begin{array}{c|c} \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} & \phantom{\rightarrow} \\ \hline \text S & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \text A' & \rightarrow & \rightarrow ^\llap{\text A\;} & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \rightarrow & \text E \\ \hline \\ \hline &&&&&& \text X \\ \hline \\ \end{array}

Where \$\text A'\$ is where the cavalier must attack from instead of \$\text A\$, which he now passes through on his way to \$\text{E}\$, as indicated by \$\rightarrow^\llap{\text{A}\;}\$.

In other words, this was very slightly off, but the final result was one totally allowed by the rules. (Unless there was some special reason why attacking from \$\text A'\$ would be different from attacking from \$\text A\$—an area effect that includes one but not the other and enhances or interferes with the attack, maybe?)

  1. Pathfinder inherits these rules from D&D 3.5e, which used identical wording, and the question of how these rules work was raised in the D&D 3.5e FAQ. Please note the myriad problems with that FAQ, but nonetheless, that entry may be worth considering. Unfortunately, in my view, it’s a very weird answer—the question asserts that, with these rules, “Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless,” to which the response is “you’ve got it about right.” The answer goes on to reiterate the rules—avoiding the phrase “directly toward” and emphasizing the closest square, much as I have—which seems like a strange thing to do if your conclusion is that those rules are useless. But it’s stranger still to answer a question asserting something is useless, and not emphatically contradict that if you don’t think it’s useless. Anyway, my primary take-away from it is that the result itself—that Ride-by Attack is “pretty much useless”—is a strong sign that the questioner’s interpretation of the rules isn’t the best one. Hence choosing to interpret “directly toward” as simply “in the manner we describe below.”
KRyan
  • 350,913
  • 58
  • 915
  • 1,459
  • The only issue I have with this is that movement during a charge must take the charger "directly toward the designated opponent." This answer has the charger going in the foe's direction but not headed directly toward the foe—that requires going on an angle toward X. Or am I overreading the word directly? – Hey I Can Chan Apr 13 '20 at 17:29
  • @HeyICanChan I think so—I think moving in a straight line to one of the nearest squares from which you can attack is what they mean by “directly.” I think it just looks a little weird because of the abstractions involved (especially the 10-ft. reach hitting the corner that’s otherwise 15-ft. away). If you imagine the five “10” squares I have in that second diagram as forming a quarter circle instead of a right angle, it gets easier to imagine the charge mostly lining up. And charging past enemies has to be a thing for Ride-by Attack to make any sense. – KRyan Apr 13 '20 at 17:35
  • Would you allow a character not on a mount to make with a reach weapon this same kind of charge yet just not move afterward? – Hey I Can Chan Apr 13 '20 at 17:38
  • @HeyICanChan Yeah, I would. (Which is why I deleted my comment about “Pathfinder mounted charge rules” wonkiness.) – KRyan Apr 13 '20 at 17:38
  • Huh. Fair enough. I just never imagined reading directly toward with such a broad mandate, thinking instead that my directly toward was everyone's directly toward. Thank you. – Hey I Can Chan Apr 13 '20 at 17:47
  • @HeyICanChan If it only said “directly toward,” I would probably require the straight-line movement to actually pass through $\text X$’s space, but then we would have a problem with Ride-by Attack. But my reading of the rest of the rules is as a tacit “when we say ‘directly toward,’ this is what we mean,” and since that neatly solves the problem with Ride-by Attack, I’m happy enough to use it. – KRyan Apr 13 '20 at 17:48
  • No, no. I think I'm almost on board! However, I'd appreciate it if this answer were to detail where directly toward is stated or implied to have that definition. (To be clear, that directly toward was added by the 3.5 revision therefore inherited by Pathfinder, but the feat Ride-by Attack wasn't updated and Pathfinder inherited that, too, and many folks—including the Sage (see my comments on the question)—do read that directly toward in the fashion I describe.) – Hey I Can Chan Apr 13 '20 at 18:08
  • @HeyICanChan While Skip says “you’ve got it about right,” appearing to confirm the querent’s claim that “Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless,” his actual answer seems to just reiterate the actual rules. He doesn’t directly expand on “directly towards” at all, that I can tell, preferring (as I do) the reference to the closest square from which an attack may be made. It makes for a really weird answer—why reiterate the rules that wind up being “useless,” if that’s what they are? Or if they don’t make it useless, why wouldn’t the answer emphasize that in response to this question? Weird. – KRyan Apr 13 '20 at 19:38
  • @HeyICanChan I’ll try to work some of this discussion into the answer, but I don’t want to devote too much space to it. – KRyan Apr 13 '20 at 19:38