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Say you're a wizard or sorcerer who wants to make a Ring of Protection. You can't prepare/know Shield of Faith, but you can use Limited Wish. Does this satisfy the requirement, or do you HAVE to have the specific spell in order to craft an item with that spell?

V2Blast
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47948201
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    Do you mean specifically using Limited Wish instead of casting the spell in the normal crafting process, or just Limited Wishing directly for the item? – Erik Oct 31 '19 at 20:48
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    As far as I can see, Limited Wish can't make magic items? (Wish can but it sounds super vague on what it can do) So I was thinking of doing regular crafting, but using Limited Wish to satisfy the Shield of Faith requirement. – 47948201 Oct 31 '19 at 20:53
  • Potentially a duplicate of this question (specifically issue #3), but I leave it to the community to decide. – Hey I Can Chan Oct 31 '19 at 20:54
  • The question is similar to some point but I believe it's ok for it not to be flaged as duplicate. – Maxpire Nov 01 '19 at 07:43
  • Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the [tour] if you haven't already, and check out the [help] for more guidance. – V2Blast Nov 02 '19 at 09:01

2 Answers2

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The rules don't specifically cover this use of limited wish, but they suggest that a reasonable DM should allow this.

According to the rules on Creating Magic Items:

These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

And you need to effectively cast or trigger the spell effect each day:

The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

In other words, there are three defined ways to meet spell prerequisites:

  1. The crafter knows the spell
  2. The crafter has a magic item which duplicates the spell
  3. Another caster knows the spell is available to help

That second one is important, because activating a magic items is explicitly described as "duplicating" the spell, not casting it. Rules Compendium, p.84:

Activating a command item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item's power duplicates. If the power doesn't duplicate a spell, activating the item is a standard action unless its description says otherwise.

"Duplicating" is the same terminology that limited wish uses. In other words, while limited wish technically does not allow you to "cast" shield of faith, it can allow you to duplicate the spell. The magic item creation rules quoted above do not at any point require you to "cast" the spell, but do allow you to provide it via items which duplicate it.

Now, this is not explicit, because we're still talking about two similar but different things: duplicating a spell with an item, and duplicating a spell with a spell. However, the manner in which ambiguous D&D rules are adjudicated by the DM is described on Dungeon Master's Guide p.6, which explicitly recommends that DM allow inferences from similar rules:

Look to any similar situation that is covered by a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance.

It would be a very reasonable inference, therefore, to allow limited wish to duplicate a spell to craft an item. However, it is technically still the DM's call, rather than something that the rules explicitly allow.

Quadratic Wizard
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  • The part that was not covered in my answer is covered here, Thank you Quadratic Wizard for this! – Maxpire Nov 02 '19 at 05:38
  • Quadratic Wizard, So that way, a wizard could learn some spells that are hard to acquire! Scribe scroll----­­>limited wish to duplicate a spell effect to scribe the scroll---> copy the spell from the scroll in your spellbook----> profit and you don't need to spend a feat for extra spell (if the spell is impossible to find otherwise let's say) So why bother casting limited wish each day if you can simply scribe a scroll (if you are a wizard and didn't chose a variant you got the feat already!) of the spell you need with limited wish ;) – Maxpire Nov 02 '19 at 08:23
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    @MaximeCuillerier Technically, Scribe Scroll has the additional requirement of "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know." A DM could allow it, though. By the time you can cast limited wish, the price of a wizard scroll of a low-level spell isn't a big deal. – Quadratic Wizard Nov 02 '19 at 14:06
  • Just as any other magic items by the way (as you yourself shared): ''These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that MUST BE KNOWN by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)'' So this included scrolls. In pathfinder you can't do this though, it works the way you describe it, but this is 3.5. As always it is the DM's call. – Maxpire Nov 03 '19 at 07:02
  • And as for the Spell ''wish'' instead of crafting a scroll using Wish as the prerequisite for the spell you could simply just wish for a scroll of the spell you want directly. – Maxpire Nov 03 '19 at 07:05
  • Scrolls are magic items: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/121287/would-detect-magic-reveal-spell-scrolls) – Maxpire Nov 03 '19 at 07:07
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    @MaximeCuillerier Yes, scrolls are magic items, but the description of Scribe Scroll adds the additional requirement that you know the spell. According to Rules Compendium p.5, specific overrides general, so that an item creation feat overrides the general item creation rules. A wizard with item creation feats could therefore craft a wand of cure light wounds with the help of a cleric, but not scribe a scroll of it. – Quadratic Wizard Nov 03 '19 at 19:40
  • If the Cleric knows cure light wounds the wizard can create a scroll of cure light wounds if the cleric is considered the creator while they do this together, the Cleric knows it so in this case you are wrong (if the wizard was considered the creator I agree) and the same wording is used for wands and scrolls in the creating magic items rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm as well as wondrous items, in all of the cases it is stated you need to know the spell, so it's either it does not work with all items, or it works with all of them IMO. – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:18
  • It is implied that you must know the spell, because you couldn't create let's say (without limited wish) a scroll of fireball if you don't know the spell at all (no help, no wand no wish etc.) ''The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material and XP component'' – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:19
  • The wand feat: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:21
  • p.215 DMG ''A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of asorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect'' + – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:28
  • I tis possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary, such as if one character knows some of the spells necessary to create an item and another character knows the rest.If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:28
  • So with all the new info I found (even spell-like abilities works!!!) Do you still disagree? it's ok we'll agree to disagree at this point and I would allow it in my game, just curious about you @Quadratic Wizard ! Try to change my mind! Love this discussion so far, I learned something again thanks to you! So does it work? would you refuse it now with wand and all items as well if you were DM? – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:34
  • Limited wish does produces the desired spell effect so I think it is not up to debate anymore. – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:45
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    @MaximeCuillerier Aha. DMG p.215, as I read it, implies that an item can have more than one creator, as long as they meet the prerequisites between them, e.g. the wizard has the item creation feat, and the cleric has the spell (which is is how my group always played it). Possible obstacles, however: p.215 technically defines prerequisites as those listed after the caster level, which doesn't apply to wands/scrolls in the DMG; and one of the creators still needs to know or prepare the spell, which isn't the case for a single wizard merely duplicating the spell. – Quadratic Wizard Nov 04 '19 at 19:37
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    @MaximeCuillerier As I said in my answer, however, I believe this is certainly in "DM's call" territory, just because it's not a strictly defined situation in the rules. I believe it would be reasonable to allow it, I've always seen it ruled this way, and I've always ruled it this way myself. The spell in a scroll/wand certainly seems like its prerequisite, and for staffs it definitively is, so if you can collaborate on a staff ought to be able to collaborate on a wand, and if so, why not a scroll? – Quadratic Wizard Nov 04 '19 at 19:49
  • well ok the wording is confusing (yeah I don't think it implies that scrolls and wands are excluded because they don't have the prerequisite written after the caster level as you stated), Sad that we cannot ask for support in 2019 for 3.5 Thanks for the discussion. It should be allowed, but even rules that are clear can be bent by a DM so this discussion comes to an end! ;) cya – Maxpire Nov 07 '19 at 03:22
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Yes, this works.

Yes, using wish for this works - and yes, you don't need to "have" the spell for it to work if you find another source to cast it.

The description of wish states:

A wish can produce any one of the following effects:

  • [...]
  • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item

[...]

Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

If you use wish/limited wish for the prerequisite for creating a magic item (to copy the spell you don't have):

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

I also found this in the DMG p.215

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect

So we can assume only the spell effect is required, so limited wish/wish works that way.

(You could argue wish is neither a spellcaster nor an item, but what about an item that could cast wish? It is a magic item, after all - but if your DM rules it out, find another item/spellcaster instead.)

Wizards and sorcerers

For a wizard, I'd suggest just learning the spell you need, buying a scroll to learn it, or asking for help from another spellcaster - because though this would work, it would be a waste of resources because you need to "consume" a spell each day of crafting, and wish/limited wish are very expensive.

So you could use limited wish to scribe a scroll instead of casting limited wish every day to do so if you have the feat. From the rules on creating rings:

The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

For the sorcerer: Either buy a knowstone if such a thing is allowed, or craft the magic item you need with the help of someone knowing the spell or use a wand/staff/scrolls if you have enough to craft.

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Maxpire
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    I get that the spell can come from another source, but if that source is a limited wish spell is the spell that the limited wish spell duplicates sufficient to meet a magic item's creation prerequisites? I mean, I'm not sure that just because another source (e.g. a dude, a magic item) can be used to meet a magic item's spells creation prerequisite that any duplicated effect also meets a magic item's spells creation prerequisite. – Hey I Can Chan Nov 01 '19 at 13:43
  • I couldn't find a definitive info that would 100% confirm that, but as Quadratic Wizard demonstrated with his answer, it should be allowed. – Maxpire Nov 02 '19 at 05:34
  • I suggest using limited wish to create a scroll of the spell you need instead of casting it each day!---->profit (if you have the scribe scroll feat or you could Wish for a scroll if limited wish can't produce it) – Maxpire Nov 02 '19 at 09:04
  • V2Blast always there to edit my answers, thank you!! I'd also like to add if knowstones are allowed but difficult to get, you could always wish for one ;) – Maxpire Nov 02 '19 at 10:58
  • Found new info in the DMG p.215! – Maxpire Nov 04 '19 at 17:31