善くも as opposed to よく

Question

I found this line in the song,”三年目の浮気”:

よくいうよ惚れたお前の負けだよ How can you say that...you fell for me and lost

At first I thought it was the よく meaning often, but someone told me it was an abbreviation of よくも (善くも), which is translated as "How dare you?" If this is true, why does 善くも mean this?

If this is not the case, what does the よくいう mean here?

Here are some of the other lyrics:

(男)馬鹿いってんじゃないよお前と俺はケンカもしたけどひとつ屋根の下暮らして来たんだぜ

Don't talk like that... Yes we fought, but we've been living under the same roof.

馬鹿いってんじゃないよお前のことだけは一日たりとも忘れたことなどなかった俺だぜ

Don't say such things... It's not like there has been even one day where I forgot you.

(女)よくいうわいつもだましてばかりで私が何んにも知らないとでも思っているのね

What are you saying?.. you're always deceiving me... And you think that I don't know?

(男)よくいうよ惚れたお前の負けだよ

What are you saying?.. you fell for me and lost

もてない男が好きなら俺も考えなおすぜ

If you really liked guys who saw no action, I'd have to think you over too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgBvi-cZbJM

a guy who sees no action is someone who is not popular with ladies = もてない — yadokari, May 28 '12 at 06:45

score 11 · Answer 1 · edited May 28 '12 at 22:39

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よく can be used as praise in regards to something which entails difficulties/trouble in some contexts (this is separate to the "often/well" meaning):

よくまあ来られましたね！
How wonderful it is that you were able to come!

But it can also be used ironically in that sense, which I think is how it's used in those lyrics:

よく(も)まあそんなことが言えますね
How dare you say such a thing?
(Literally something like "How wonderful that you can say such a thing.")

よくも is a strengthened version of よく (according to Daijisen) used to express surprise/blame at awful behavior. The も can be omitted and have the same "how dare..." meaning in many contexts.

If you look at the Progressive JE dictionary entry for よく, you'll see some more examples in the 5th and 6th definitions.

edited May 28 '12 at 22:39

yadokari

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answered May 28 '12 at 08:04

cypher

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if よく(も)まあそんなことが言えますね means How dare you say such a thing? then what do you think よくいうよ means? – yadokari May 28 '12 at 22:45
and what does よくいうよ mean in a non- ironic way? – yadokari May 28 '12 at 22:46
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I think よくいうよ literally means "how wonderful what you say is" or something, but I think it can mean a lot of things. Space ALC has quite a few examples: When used literally "now you're talking"/"I like that!"; ironically "give me a break" (in regards to lies/jokes/pranks etc, which I think is how it's used here), "That's such a lie"/"I can't believe what you're saying"/"what are you saying?" etc also work in many contexts. It also can often mean "look who's talking"/"pot calling the kettle black" etc. – cypher May 28 '12 at 23:40

score 2 · Answer 2 · edited Mar 12 '24 at 02:32

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"よく言う" has more than three meanings. Here are three:

母は、外国に行ってみたいと、よく言っていた。= My mom often told me that she wanted to go abroad.
社長に、私のことを、よく言ってくれてありがとう = Thank you for speaking well of me to the president.
よく、そんなことが言えるな。(an ironic expression) = How can you say such a silly thing? Give me a break.

In this example it is the third meaning.

edited Mar 12 '24 at 02:32

chocolate

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answered May 28 '12 at 18:24

yadokari

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あとは、「よく言った！偉い！」って褒める時もありますよね – chocolate Mar 12 '24 at 02:34

score 0 · Answer 3 · answered May 28 '12 at 06:27

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The よく here is neither the one meaning "often" nor is it abbreviated from よくも.

answered May 28 '12 at 06:27

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thanks. what does よくいう mean here then? "You talk a lot"/ (you talk too much)? – yadokari May 28 '12 at 06:41
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I thought so too (that よく was different from よくも), since I had never heard よくも言う, but then I googled it and saw many cases that seem legit. So now I'm not so sure. Personally, I would only use よくも with past tense, as in よくも叩いたな – dainichi May 29 '12 at 03:44
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@yadokari It means approximately "to shamelessly say something you should be ashamed to say". – dainichi May 29 '12 at 03:45
I'm think about the same thing. It seems that the simple present tense can be used to praise (ironically) someone. いいこというね, やるね. – Yang Muye May 12 '14 at 11:38

善くも as opposed to よく

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