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I am trying to grasp the difference between de and des after nouns and “beaucoup”.

  1. I am aware of the construction beaucoup de (always singular) + nouns.

    J'ai beaucoup de livres.

    J'ai peu de défauts.

    What is the rule behind the use of just "de" ? Any other cases like this? Can we say that this applies for adjective/adverb?

  2. After nouns, I saw

    Justificatif de domicile

    Nombre d'écrans

    Why are we using “de” here ? Why not “justificatif du domicile” or “nombre des écrans”? What is the rule here?

Stéphane Gimenez
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Kenny
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1 Answers1

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Several constructions exist that link two nouns with the preposition de.

  1. The preposition de can be used to characterize the kind of object we are talking about. It is in this case used without an article, and the following characterization can either be singular or plural.

    le sac de sable
    le sac de fraises

    This is what happens with “justificatif”.

    le justificatif de domicile

    You can think of it as a single word, like “brosse à dents”.

  2. Other usages of de exist, for example, to express possession (but not only). In this case:

    • to form an indefinite reference use d'un/d'une (preposition de + article) + noun

      le sac d'un ami

    • to form a partitive (or indefinite plural) reference use de (preposition de, alone) + noun

      plusieurs sacs d'amis

    • to form a singular definite reference to an object use du/de la/de l' (preposition de + article) + noun.

      le sac du facteur

    • to form a plural definite reference to particular objects use des (preposition de + les) + noun (plural form).

      le sac des élèves

The funny thing is that many of your examples (“beaucoup”, “peu”, “nombre”) are very particular examples, because each corresponds to two different fixed locutions. The first ones are very similar to first type of constructions:

  • beaucoup de bateaux: a lot of boats
  • peu d'élèves: few students
  • nombre d'instituteurs: numerous teachers

The second ones act as a particular kinds of pronouns and are quite similar to the second type of constructions as they refer to a definite set:

  • beaucoup des bateaux (que …): many of/among the boats (which …)
  • peu des élèves (que …): few of/among the students (whom …)
  • nombre des candidats (que …): a large number of/among candidates (whom …)

It is also possible to use un/le nombre as a usual noun. In this case it has to be preceded by an article and it means “number”. It is followed by a bare de:

  • le nombre de participants: the number of participants

It's similar for un/le peu which means “a/the little” (and can also be used for some uncountable plurals):

  • un peu de sable
  • un peu de fraises
Stéphane Gimenez
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  • I don't understand the second part where you write "beaucoup des bateaux". It seems not right, so if you can give example, it would be nice. – Yohann V. May 20 '15 at 12:53
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    @Yohann: Beaucoup des bateaux que j'ai vus avaient une coque bleue. – Stéphane Gimenez May 20 '15 at 13:48
  • It is crystal clear like this, thank you – Yohann V. May 20 '15 at 13:52
  • Thanks Stéphane. It seems that beaucoup de, peu de, nombre de are more of the total number in general, where with des , it means more of certain individuals in the collection ? What would mean number of students , as in the number of students in the class is 10 ? Can we safely say that noun1 + de + noun2 always hold true if noun2 characterizes/complement noun1 and not noun1 of noun2 ? – Kenny May 20 '15 at 16:14
  • @Kenny: precisions added. – Stéphane Gimenez May 20 '15 at 17:00
  • Maybe a detail worth noting: des is actually a contracted form of de les (same as du is the contraction of de le). This can help understand the difference between beaucoup de bateaux ("Many boats have a sail.") and beaucoup des bateaux ("Many of the boats I've seen had a blue hull.") for instance. – Chop May 21 '15 at 07:32
  • @StéphaneGimenez: Thanks. Nevertheless, I saw Préfecture, Bureau des étrangers instead of Bureau d'étrangers. To me étrangers is more of a characterization for bureau. It does not really mean étrangers who owns the bureau (in term of posession des (de les)) as in le bureau du chef, le bureau du collègue – Kenny May 21 '15 at 08:49
  • Hehe, “bureau d'étrangers” could mean “office full of strangers”. It's always difficult to tell which construction should be used. Sometimes the choice is arbitrary. – Stéphane Gimenez May 21 '15 at 08:52
  • Lol I suppose I am digging deep enough I starts to encounter demons now. And it's just something quotidien like this.. Then bureau d'étrangers always means office full of foreigners. It never means foreigners office as a characterization? – Kenny May 21 '15 at 09:00
  • Indeed bureau is usually followed by a de that attaches a topic to it. “Bureau de la pêche”, “Bureau de l'administration”, “Bureau des étudiants”. Adding a complement does not change the meaning. It remains a normal “bureau”. In the one exception I can think of, “Bureau de change”, the article drops. – Stéphane Gimenez May 21 '15 at 09:23
  • Yet le sac de sable et le sac de fraises still remains a normal sac , non? – Kenny May 21 '15 at 09:32
  • Not really as it means the contents more than the container in this case. And by the way, the container would be un sac à sable or un sac à fraises (if such a thing existed). – Stéphane Gimenez May 21 '15 at 09:34
  • Isn't it the same with bureau ? bureau is not made of étrangers. The container is unchanged, only the content. bureau des étrangers, bureau des étudiants and sac de sable/sac de frites both talk about the content, with the container unchanged. The following is not a very good example because it refers to another meaning of bureau, but what I am trying to say is in the sense of made of similar to un sac à sable : un bureau à bois – Kenny May 21 '15 at 10:13
  • Also, bureau de tabac :). Which category does this falls into? – Kenny May 21 '15 at 11:17
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    In “sac à sable” the meaning is “made for”; “en” would be used for “made of” like in “sac en papier”. Though sometimes “de” can also be used for that, like in “pont de pierre”. “Bureau de tabac” is clearly not a usual “bureau”; this is another good example. – Stéphane Gimenez May 21 '15 at 11:24
  • Those have been great explanations. Thanks Stéphane. – Kenny May 21 '15 at 12:26