Is "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" ungrammatical?

Question

The question came from the following thread on this site.

I had a girlfriend, whom I didn't want to leave

A user TRomano told me in his comment that "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical. When I asked him the reason why, he suggested I ask it as a separate question on this site.

I don't think the matching more vs. -er is so important, and it reads OK. I suppose proper grammar-wise, since there is no "difficulter", your only other option is "more difficult and noble". — user3169, May 22 '16 at 01:39
The determiner (a) precedes the adjectives: It is a more difficult and nobler enterprise. — StoneyB on hiatus, May 22 '16 at 01:56
@StoneyB Here is a quote by Barney G. Glaser(you can google about him). Experts versus Laymen: A Study of the Patsy and the Subcontractor "Thus, as choosing becomes more imminent, the handling of people becomes more pronounced. Handling people at this stage can easily become more difficult a task than comparing, which mostly is a fairly straight forward calculation." — Makoto Kato, May 22 '16 at 02:07
You could also say: It is a more difficult and nobler an enterprise. — Peter, May 22 '16 at 03:27
@MakotoKato Glaser is a very clever fellow, but not much of a writer. — StoneyB on hiatus, May 22 '16 at 03:47
@StoneyB Here is a quote by Richard Dutton, who is a professor of English. https://english.osu.edu/people/dutton.42
Selected Writings by Sir Philip Sidney, Richard Dutton "Even for his near contemporaries, then, the Sidney myth could be hard to swallow. Today, the chief danger is that it distorts our understanding of the man and his times and so makes more difficult a proper appreciation of his writings." — Makoto Kato, May 24 '16 at 07:12
The issue here, Makoto Kato, is the distinction between comparatives using "more" and comparatives using the inflectional ending -er. Except in {the more x, the more y} constructions (The more difficult and nobler an enterprise, the more dedicated we should be to it), there cannot be an article between the comparative ending in -er and the noun it modifies. "It is a more difficult and nobler^enterprise." as StoneyB commented above, and as Damkerng T. answered below. — TimR, May 24 '16 at 09:35
@MakotoKato In your Dutton quote the adjective phrase more difficult is not an attributive but a predicate complement: The Sidney myth does not make a more difficult appreciation, it makes the appreciation more difficult. — StoneyB on hiatus, May 24 '16 at 11:39
@StoneyB According to Huddleston and Pullum, "this is more serious a problem than the other" is grammatical(please see the Damkerng T.'s answer below). — Makoto Kato, May 25 '16 at 03:27
@TRomano I can see that "it is nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical, but I don't see why "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical. — Makoto Kato, May 25 '16 at 03:35
@StoneyB "There is no nobler an enterprise than to" doesn't seem to be reconstructable with the adjective as part of the nominal. It seems grammatical to me (but not good style necessarily!) — Araucaria - Not here any more., May 25 '16 at 10:48
@StoneyB "Glaser is a very clever fellow, but not much of a writer." <-- Yes, cleverer a fellow you never shall meet ;) — Araucaria - Not here any more., May 25 '16 at 10:51
@Araucaria: But is Glaser "more difficult and cleverer a fellow" than ever I shall meet? — TimR, May 25 '16 at 11:00
@StoneyB "See my comment there" Where exactly is "there" and what is it, please? — Makoto Kato, May 28 '16 at 23:48

Damkerng T. · Answer 1 · 2016-05-24T07:24:52.583

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Is "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" ungrammatical? I don't think it is grammatical, and while I'm not going to claim that I know through and through of it, I believe that this part of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (CGEL) by Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum, page 435, can explain this problem.

AdjPs introduced by the degree adverbs more and less

[7] a. This is [more serious a problem than the other].
[7] b. This is [a more serious problem than the other].

With AdjPs of this form, there is alternation between the external position [a] and the internal [b]. Again, the external position is available only in combination with a -- compare the bare NP These are [more serious problems than the others]. Note also that inflectional comparatives are restricted to internal position: Kim is a better player than Pat, not *Kim is better a player than Pat.

Similarly to *Kim is better a player than Pat, which is ungrammatical, It is more difficult and nobler an enterprise is ungrammatical, because "inflectional comparatives are restricted to internal position" as mentioned in CGEL.

edited May 24 '16 at 07:24

answered May 22 '16 at 08:47

Damkerng T.

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"Is 'it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise' ungrammatical? I don't think it is," "It is more difficult and nobler an enterprise is ungrammatical," Would you tell me which is your answer? – Makoto Kato May 24 '16 at 07:16
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Sorry about the confusion. My answer, as it was, could be (and should be) read as I don't think it is ungrammatical indeed, even though my intention was I don't think it is grammatical. Thanks for the comment. – Damkerng T. May 24 '16 at 07:24
I can see that "it is nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical, but I don't see why "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical. – Makoto Kato May 25 '16 at 03:31
How would adding "more difficult and" wrest "nobler an enterprise" from ungrammaticality? – TimR May 25 '16 at 11:04
@TRomano The onus to explain why it is ungrammatical is on you, not on me. – Makoto Kato May 28 '16 at 23:57
@Makoto Kato; Perhaps you can assist me in that endeavor by explaining why you think the addition of "more difficult and" changes things? – TimR May 29 '16 at 10:25
@TRomano I'm just asking. I'm not claiming anything. You are the one who is claiming the sentence is ungrammatical. "It is more difficult an enterprise" is grammatical. I don't see why the addition of "and nobler" makes it ungrammatical. – Makoto Kato May 30 '16 at 01:08
Suggested reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammaticality – Damkerng T. May 30 '16 at 07:39
@Damkerng T. I can see that "it is nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical. But I don't see why "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is ungrammatical. Would you please explain? – Makoto Kato Jun 03 '16 at 02:48
@MakotoKato You can argue for "more difficult and nobler an enterprise" by arguing that "more difficult an enterprise" is fine, so should "more difficult ANYTHING GOES HERE an enterprise" be. On the other hand, we can as well argue that because "nobler an enterprise" is not fine, neither should "ANYTHING GOES HERE nobler an enterprise" be. See, you can argue for or against it logically. Then again, if you read the Grammaticality page above, you'd see that it's probably better to consider "acceptability" and "sentence is considered permissible by speaker and hearer" is an important point. – Damkerng T. Jun 03 '16 at 07:38
@Damkerng T. Do you think "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is acceptable? – Makoto Kato Jun 03 '16 at 23:37
@MakotoKato Personally, I would classify it as "something that I wouldn't use, and if I somehow used it and was asked about it, I would admit that it's a mistake; it's also something that I wouldn't expect any native speaker to use, but if a native speaker indeed used it, I would let it pass and note his or her idiosyncrasy; then again, I wouldn't expect everyone to notice this quirk, a native speaker or not." -- Also note that this is only for this specific case, not those close and possibly related but nonidentical cases like in Araucaria's examples. – Damkerng T. Jun 04 '16 at 00:00
@Damkerrng T. Why do you think it's a mistake? – Makoto Kato Jun 06 '16 at 03:11
@MakotoKato This is the fun part. When a speaker is asked to judge whether a sentence is acceptable or not, we don't ask why. I don't think many of us really know "why" we think this sounds right or wrong, idiomatic or unidiomatic, acceptable or unacceptable. We just know or at least we just "feel" it that way, – Damkerng T. Jun 06 '16 at 08:16
@Damkerng T. So you think it's a mistake even though you aren't a native speaker. Where does your confindence come from? – Makoto Kato Jun 07 '16 at 03:46
@MakotoKato Read my assessment carefully. I said "and if I somehow used it and was asked about it, I would admit that it's a mistake". – Damkerng T. Jun 07 '16 at 08:14
@Damkerng T. Okay, I'll change the question. If you were asked about it, you would think it is a mistake. Why would you think it is a mistake? – Makoto Kato Jun 07 '16 at 23:58
LOL -- (Keep in mind that when I wrote "and was asked about it" it was in the case that "if I somehow used it".) If that happened, it'd obviously be a mistake to me because I know that I wouldn't use it. :-) – Damkerng T. Jun 08 '16 at 00:10
@Damkerng T. If you know you wouldn't use it, what's your point in talking about when you would use it? – Makoto Kato Jun 08 '16 at 04:31
This is, I believe, just common sense. People can make mistakes, and I know I make a lot of mistakes, in all forms, typos, brainos, mispronunciation, and such. It's normal for me, and I think everyone when they speak or write spontaneously or casually routinely would routinely make mistakes as well, not only in their second languages, but in their first, too. – Damkerng T. Jun 08 '16 at 09:51
@Damkerng T. Would you please keep on topic? Why do you think "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is a mistake? By the way, please write my username at the top of your comment to ping me. Otherwise I may not notice it. – Makoto Kato Jun 09 '16 at 01:27
@MakotoKato Why does my opinion is that important to you? Let me get this straight. When I found this question, I took it as you didn't understand why a native speaker commented on your sentence that it didn't sound correct (or odd or unnatural or whatever they said) to them, and you wanted to know a possible reason. (I normally don't take the title literally and always try to find the real cause of a learner's problem.) That was why I took my time looking for a reason in the reference. Now, after seeing these comments, I have a feeling that you're more interested in defending your sentence. – Damkerng T. Jun 09 '16 at 01:47
@MakotoKato (cont.) In my opinion, I believe that I've done a good enough job on my part, which was looking it up in a reliable reference, writing up my answer, and answering your question in the title, which you just asked once again in your last comment. – Damkerng T. Jun 09 '16 at 01:53
@Damkerng T. I'm just curious about why you think the sentence is a mistake because you posted an answer to the question of this thread, which I don't think is satisfactory. I explained the reason why. I'm not defending myself or anyone else. I just want to know whether the sentence "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is grammatical or not. And nobody has answered it yet. – Makoto Kato Jun 10 '16 at 07:53
@MakotoKato First, I said, "something that I wouldn't use, and if I somehow used it and was asked about it, I would admit that it's a mistake", and I said that because you asked "Do you think "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" is acceptable?" (Note the difference between this (acceptable) and your question (ungrammatical).) And that was after lots of comments between you and TRomano. Now it's lots of comments between you and me(!) -- Finally, I've answered! (*Similarly to *'Kim is better a player than Pat', which is ungrammatical, [your sentence] is ungrammatical, because ...*) – Damkerng T. Jun 10 '16 at 09:29
My final note: it's quite all right if you think you haven't received a good answer yet. Stack Exchange has a feature for this: you can "start a bounty" at least two days after posting a question (IIRC). (This question is almost three weeks old already.) – Damkerng T. Jun 10 '16 at 09:37

Is "it is more difficult and nobler an enterprise" ungrammatical?

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