3

In many Taiwanese novels I encounter the word 姊姊 (older sister). This is of course one of the first words a Chinese learner will encounter. My question is more regarding the reading of it. On the mainland you are most likely to encounter the spelling 姐姐, which is read jiějie in both China and Taiwan. According to the Cross-Straits Dictionary, 姊姊 on the other hand, should be read as jiějie in Taiwan and zǐzǐ in China. If a person from say, Beijing, were to read a Taiwanese novel, would he read 姊姊 as jiějie or zǐzǐ?

If the word was 垃圾, we would most likely get lājī from a northerner, and lèsè from a Taiwanese. But that is the case of "same characters, different pronunciations". Here it's not the reading that's different (both would call older sister jiějie), but rather the characters. I'm less certain a northerner would actually say zǐzǐ.

timseb
  • 553
  • 1
  • 9

5 Answers5

5

This is even a hard question for people in china. We understand the meaning of "姊姊", but we don't use that word in daily life. If you ask me to read it. I will most likely read it as "zǐzǐ".

The reason why they don't convert "姊姊" into "姐姐" is because that the ways of saying sisters also provide background of the charactors in the book. You can treat this condition as different words with the same meaning.

Meng Cao
  • 76
  • 3
  • 姊 is used for the senior sister. 姐 can be used for both junior or senior female, and 小姐 means Lady. However, these days in China, do not call a lady "小姐" without permission from her. – r13 Jul 20 '22 at 01:12
  • ＂but we don't use that word in daily life.＂Maybe not today, but 姊姊 can be found in old novels such as 【鏡花緣】、【拍案驚奇】、【二十年目睹之怪現狀】、【峨嵋仙踪】、【江湖奇俠傳】、【宋代宮闈史】。 – joehua Jul 20 '22 at 12:56
  • Those are true. Language is constantly changing. – Meng Cao Jul 20 '22 at 18:37
2

No matter in which part of China, "jiějiě" is the standard pronunciation of 姊姊, however, affected by dialects, the sound may be distorted locally due to variance in pronunciation of, or lacking, certain vowels and consonants.

For example, many older generation Taiwanese have difficulty producing sounds that required curling the tongue, so "老師" sounded like "老私", and "二哥" sounded like "呃哥". I believe it happens in many regional dialects.

Please read this thread for the dual pronunciations of 垃圾.

Edit:

Special case: 姊妹 [zǐ mèi] -

  1. 用來表示女子間像姊妹那样密切关系的称呼. 又称姊妹淘.

  2. 用作兄弟姐妹的统称时，也写作“子妹”.

https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%A7%8A%E5%A6%B9/9726065

ADD:

"姊姊" pronounces [zǐ zi; ㄗˇ ㄗ] -

  • 稱母親:《北齊書·文宣李後傳》：“ 武成踐祚，逼後淫亂，雲：‘若不許，我當殺爾兒。’後懼，從之。後有娠， 太原王紹德至閤，不得見，愠曰：‘兒豈不知耶，姊姊腹大，故不見兒。’”此“姊姊”系高紹德稱稱其母李祖娥。

  • 稱乳母: 《北齊書·南陽王綽傳》：“ 綽兄弟皆呼父為兄兄，嫡母為家家，乳母為姊姊，婦為妹妹。” 《北齊書·琅邪王儼傳》：“尊兄若欲殺臣，不敢逃罪，若放臣，願遣姊姊來迎臣，臣即入見。”此“姊姊”系 儼稱其乳母陸令萱 。

https://baike.baidu.hk/item/%E5%A7%8A%E5%A7%8A/5216421

r13
  • 12,912
  • 1
  • 7
  • 26
  • I wonder why Cross Straits say zǐzǐ. My understanding was that it was specifically made to show official readings for both regions. The Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian, Xinhua and Xiandai Hanyu Cidian all give zǐ as the only reading for 姊, but no entry at all for 姊姊, only for 姊妹 (zǐmèi). Note that I, too, have never heard anyone actually say zǐzǐ, which is why I'm a bit confused. – timseb Jul 19 '22 at 20:17
  • I agree it (zǐmèi) exists, my mother used to her lady friends "wǒ zǐmèi" (我姊妹). – r13 Jul 19 '22 at 20:40
  • The follow-up question would then be, how come 姊姊 is not changed into 姐姐 when novels are released in China? I have encountered it more than once, most recently while reading Crystal Boys by Pai Hsien-yung. Or maybe it is, and sometimes isn't? I will mark this an answered, since you have confirmed "older sister" will always be read as jiějiě in Putonghua, but I am still interested in a follow-up answer. – timseb Jul 19 '22 at 20:44
  • I suggest opening a new thread for the follow-up question, as it is not directly related to this question. – r13 Jul 19 '22 at 20:53
  • 1
    "No matter in which part of China, "jiějiě" is the standard pronunciation of 姊姊" I doubt it. 秭笫胏 all pronounce as zǐ. It'd be no surprise that 姊 also pronounces as zǐ. – joehua Jul 20 '22 at 00:05
  • @joehua It is interesting to know then. Can you write something about it? Better yet, with a reference indicating it is part of standard Chinese. – r13 Jul 20 '22 at 00:11
  • @r13 The two dictionaries I use most often are 漢典 and 國語辭典．Both have an entry for 姊姊. – joehua Jul 20 '22 at 00:24
  • @joehua Both sources list "姊姊" zǐ zi (语音）​jiě jie ㄗˇ ˙ㄗ （语音）​ㄐㄧㄝˇ ˙ㄐㄧㄝ. Note that ㄐㄧㄝˇ ˙ㄐㄧㄝ is your older sister, ㄗˇ ˙ㄗ is an elder female who took care of you while you were little (乳母). Please listen to the explanation on 漢典 for each pronunciation. – r13 Jul 20 '22 at 00:38
  • @r13 You need to be careful when reading 漢典 because it also includes 國語辭典。漢典 only has zǐ zǐ . The 語音 and 讀音 are from 國語辭典。 – joehua Jul 20 '22 at 11:53
  • @joehua This is rather new to me. So zi zi is the standard pronunciation in China for elder sister now? – r13 Jul 20 '22 at 13:59
  • @r13 According to other answers, 姊姊 is no longer used in colloquial speech, though it can be found in late Qing dynasty novels. – joehua Jul 20 '22 at 16:00
  • @joehua I posted a question, maybe you may help to clarify the matter, as I am not familiar with the practices in mainland China, or it is a historical phenomenon that I am not aware of. – r13 Jul 20 '22 at 16:18
2

I think in mainland we pronounce 姊姊 as zǐzǐ. I would probably pronounce the second zǐ as neutral tone zi.

So, if I see the word in a novel, I would pronounce it as zǐzi.

dan
  • 24,009
  • 1
  • 10
  • 23
1

I am a northerner. I would simply say, 姊姊 is just not in the northerners' vocabulary. If you force me to pronounce it, I will simple feeling uncomfortable doing so. I always say 姐姐 instead.

River
  • 2,626
  • 5
  • 15
  • Note that I'm not writing anything. My question was only how 姊姊 is read when it actually appears in novels, which it does, even in simplified books. My gut instinct was that 姊 in that specific case should be read as jiě. The confusion comes from several authoritative dictionaries only providing zǐ as the reading for 姊. – timseb Jul 19 '22 at 20:20
  • @timseb your situation is exactly the same as follow. There is a brand name called "東洋の花" everyone tend to read it as "东洋之花" but every Japanese dictionary says の should be read as "no". As の is simply not in Chinese vocabulary, what everyone do is not reading it differently, but translation. Reading 姊姊 as 姐姐 is also a translation. 姊姊 is just not in the northerners' vocabulary. – River Jul 20 '22 at 21:15
  • The previous comment only holds true in northern China. If a northerner read 姊姊 as 姐姐, there is a translation process. – River Jul 20 '22 at 21:40
  • @timseb Sorry I am not saying you should "Always use 姐姐 ". I am saying "I always" do that. That's my bad. – River Jul 20 '22 at 21:43
0

Actually, we never say 姊姊, at least in my home town. We would say 姊妹, something like brothers and sisters.

Zhang
  • 742
  • 4
  • 10