How can I make the rules of my Faerie Portal free from contradiction?

Question

On the hilltop in the field near my house, there lives a coven of witches. Or, more accurately, there is a coven of witches living in a pocket of the Faerie Realm which has recently become attached to the hilltop by my house.

By the rules of the Faerie Court, their home must be hidden using both verbal and somatic charms. I already know the verbal charm. I won't write it here. The somatic charm works like this. Around the hilltop are 13 trees. See diagram.

To get to the witches' realm, you must walk the following path.

The important part is what side of the trees you pass. If you complete only some of the correct loops, you cannot meet the witches.

When standing left of the tree with the cross, you will see the normal hilltop. But once you pass the cross tree, provided you have made the correct loops beforehand, you will see a similar hilltop, except there is a big iron cauldron with three hags capering about. If you line yourself up correctly with the tree, you can see one half of the cauldron to the right of the trunk, but no cauldron to the left.

If, at any point during the charm walk, you stray too far from the hill, you will end up back in the mortal realm and have to start the charm walk again. This is where things get confusing.

Suppose friends stands south of the hill at the blue marker. Far enough away that they would have to restart their charm walk. Meanwhile I do the correct loops until I reach the pink marker.

Now I can see the witches to my north. Since walking south will return me to the mortal realm, I should be able to see my friends to the South. But since they have not completed the walk, they cannot see the witches to the north. So what happens if they start walking north towards me? Then we walk together to the hilltop. Do they meet the witches or not? Something's gotta give.

I have not tried this with another person yet. I have tried with my pet labrador. But unfortunately she will not sit still long enough to complete the experiment.

The witches are happy for me to know about their den, because I buy so many potions from them. But they will be upset if I tell anyone else. So I would like some opinions on what might happen before I take the risk of letting other people in on the secret. What do you expect to happen?

What's the point of having faerie magic if it's going to be logical and consistent? Faerie magic should be arbitrary and capricious, that's what makes it faerie magic. — Cadence, Mar 13 '23 at 15:13
@Cadence I would invite you to ask the witches yourself, but I do not know you well enough. — Daron, Mar 13 '23 at 16:16
What happens afterwards? Is there another ritual involved, or do you simply leave that realm if you will it, or if there's sufficient distance between you and the witches ("walking South"), or when they desire it? — Joachim, Mar 13 '23 at 21:15
How do you expect this question to have a singular specific answer? Please remember that we don't permit opinion based questions on this site. Someone with your experience should be familiar enough with site policy to not ask a question that is explicitly soliciting people's opinions about what could happen. — sphennings, Mar 13 '23 at 21:50
Opinion based questions are traditionally accepted on worldbuilding, so long as the topic is focused, as it is here. If we actually questions answers that require opinions, we'd destroy probably 90% of the content, including most of what earned the close voters the rep they use to cast close votes. — JamieB, Mar 14 '23 at 04:56
I'm disappointed your somatic charms didn't include removing a finger or something. — , Mar 14 '23 at 23:29
@SDSHuge2.0 Worldbuilder.SE does not allow questions regarding the mechanics of established franchises. This SE is about creating your own fictional worlds; so, while this question could be about a game, it could just as easily be about a book, movie idea, etc. — Nosajimiki, Mar 16 '23 at 13:12
@sphennings Magic based questions are never going to have a single answer and could be described as opinion based, but they do often have a clearly best answer in terms of what is thematically consistent. For example: if a water mage wants to cross a river, parting the waters would be more in theme than flying over it or raising the riverbed to make a bridge. While all answers could technically work (because magic isn't real anyway) they are not all equally consistent. — Nosajimiki, Mar 16 '23 at 13:22
@SDSHuge2.0 It's not about a game system. Verbal and Somatic are words used in D&D but they can be used in plain English just as well. — Daron, Mar 16 '23 at 13:40
Note that a not entirely dissimilar thing can happen in our world too: according to special relativity, two observers sharing the same space-time coordinates can see different things depending on their velocity. An event that is in the future for one can be in the past for the other. — biziclop, Mar 16 '23 at 14:52
@Nosajimiki Given the number of valid answers we can safely conclude that the question is too subjective and open ended for this site. We're not here to generate ideas or brainstorm which is exactly what this question asks us to do, make something up for OP. — sphennings, Mar 17 '23 at 06:41
@sphennings Most questions have multiple "valid" answers, that is not how closed for being too subjective works. The problem comes when all answers are EQAULLY valid, and people answering have no guidelines for how to assess which one is best. If all answers were getting about the same number of votes, then I would agree, but since the top answer has a score over 3x as high as the next best answer, then this question has already proven that not all answers are equally valid. — Nosajimiki, Mar 17 '23 at 13:38
"Brainstorming" questions are not off topic when there is a clear goal of what you are brainstorming for. In this case, achieving internally consistency with what rules he already established cuts out many possible answers, and makes all possible answers have varying levels of internal consistency. — Nosajimiki, Mar 17 '23 at 13:38

Nosajimiki · Answer 1 · 2023-03-17T14:48:11.953

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How to make internally consistent magic

Magic lets you do pretty much whatever you want, especially when talking about the kind of spells that completely side-step the known laws of nature... so defining internally consistent magic can be a bit difficult at times. But, there is a rule of thumb that generally works for these sorts of problems:

Identify what experiences/effects your existing magic is based off of, and create mechanics that reproduce those experiences/effects in other aspects of the spell.

Based on how you've described your portal, I would identify that your spell is following these rules:

Passing between trees is the somatic action that activates the magic.
Things are invisible until you pass an occluding tree, and then it is visible.
The worlds are mirror images of each other except for the witches.

So, the most internally consistent answer will use all of these facts as much as you possibly can, and any problem you run into that can't be solved with all 3 facts should be solved by minimally restating as few facts as possible. Your first course of action if you can't solve a spell by using the rules, is to try to add symmetry to your rules. If your setup shows a 1-way relationship, then solving a problem with a symmetrical relationship can actually make your rules feel even better defined and consistent. If that is not enough, next try minimal changes to rules. Small adjustments to the rules are better than completely ignoring them

Following this process, I came up with the following.

You disappear the first time you pass out of sight

While you do not see the witches until you pass the last tree, you have actually stepped into the magical realm upon crossing the first pair of trees. The outside observer will see you disappear as soon as you pass behind something crossing out of his sight, and he will likewise disappear for you. Because you must pass to the inside of some of the trees, it is impossible for the outside observer to walk around the hill in any way that you never pass from view once you are somewhere on the path.

This solves the problem of your friend being able to sit around waiting for you because they will never see you come out from behind the hill. This means you don't need to fight with all the paradoxical things of watching your friend interacting with things that don't exist from your perspective while staying 100% inside of the established rules.

It also adds symmetry to rule #3. If our world does not have witches, then logically, the witch world should not have your friend.

You reappear when you wander back "somewhere out of sight".

The hard part is how coming back should work. Ideally, there should always be a tree to step out from behind if you want to follow all the rules you're already working with... but there are simply too many places your friend (or multiple friends) could be standing to make that not work. So, I will say this is a good time to slightly relax one of the rules.

At this point you could completely violate the "occluding tree" rule and have your person reappear with a flash or step out of a mist or just plain appear out of thin air or something, but these are completely new ways of transitioning between worlds; so, they will feel inconsistent with the "occluding tree" rule. A smaller violation might be to just slightly change the "occluding tree" rule to "any occlusion".

So, if your friend is waiting by the opening and you try to walk straight to them, you will not see them, you are trapped in Faerie until you cross out of mutual line of sight. So, you could walk past them, not seeing them, then turn around to find them standing behind you. Or you could pass behind a rock or bush what not... or if the hill and whole surrounding area is filled by people, you could might even need to walk all the way home, and not actually "be back" until you go inside and close yourself off in a secluded space.

The magic does not care how far you must wander, as long as there is a person to see you or be seen, you cannot return to the real world. Likewise, if the grove is surrounded by people such that you can not pass out of sight, you can not enter Faerie, even if you solve the puzzle.

So if a portal like this opened somewhere in the middle of Downtown New York, it would be almost impossible to pass into.

edited Mar 17 '23 at 14:48

answered Mar 13 '23 at 18:39

Nosajimiki

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I like this. If there's a witch's realm and a not-witches realm, then there could be an in-between realm. Part of passing through the gate is passing out of sight of everyone not in the witch's realm. – Robert Rapplean Mar 13 '23 at 20:33
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This addresses the "inbound" journey, but not the return. If you're looking at the witches, you should theoretically be able to turn around, walk directly toward where your friend would be, and be back in the mortal realm by the time you reach them. But there's no line of sight break in that process... so what happens? – R.M. Mar 13 '23 at 23:11
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@RobertRapplean some experience in non-euclidean game development says that every time you pass between a relevant pair of trees you teleport to an identical copy of the world. If the game engine is really good, line-of-sight rays can also pass through these teleport points so your friend can see you. And just as you round the last tree you see the witches come into view around only one side of the tree. – user253751 Mar 14 '23 at 00:55
@Nosajimiki by your own diagram, won't he reappear for an instant between the 4th and 3rd to last tree, and the fully after the 3rd to last tree. Then disappear after he finally rounds the last final tree on his way to the hill? – SDSHuge2.0 Mar 14 '23 at 01:06
@R.M. you could always just go really silly with that, like with Number 4 Privet Drive in the Harry Potter movies. – user253751 Mar 14 '23 at 02:59
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@R.M. If the OP's friend is nearby when the OP returns from the Faerie Realm, the two of them will probably just catch sight of each other at some point. They might be surprised they didn't notice each other before. If you ask the friend about it later, they might recall seeing the OP as they glanced across the hillside, or being so distracted that they barely saw the OP at first, even though they were staring right at them. If you don't ask, I doubt the friend will even remember such details. [continued...] – Vectornaut Mar 14 '23 at 04:25
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@R.M. [... continued] The friend is very unlikely to perceive the OP as being absent in one moment and present in the next. I've never known anyone in the friend's position to experience this without having an exceptional affinity for the Faerie Realm (e.g. having visited as a small child, having a relative or imaginary friend there, having a Fascination with some plant, animal, or shade near the Portal), the OP (e.g. desperate love, causeless loathing, matching freckles, wordless knowing), or both. – Vectornaut Mar 14 '23 at 04:27
What if the friend walks with OP all the way, and only at the end he wanders away far enough to break his part of the ritual? This way OP never gets out of sight. – Neinstein Mar 14 '23 at 08:47
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@Neinstein The magic will ensure blue loses sight of purple. Something makes a cracking sound causing blue to turn around momentarily, perhaps dust gets blown in blue's eye, a leaf might fall in front of blue's vision, or maybe blue blinks. Even if blue holds purple's hand, they will find themselves holding a weirdly hand-shaped root, that happens to disappear after they throw/put it away and lose sight of it. Even if a third person (orange) watches them from blue's original spot, orange will lose sight of both when they start the path and see blue step around a tree when he leaves the path. – vinzzz001 Mar 14 '23 at 10:43
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Would this not mean you can brute force the path? If you figure out that something is going on, you just keep looking at your friend. You pass a tree and still see him? Wrong way around. Friend gone means right way around. Now move friend to your location and repeat for next tree. This isnt perse a bad thing, might be something interesting for the story, but might be something to be aware of. – Martijn Mar 14 '23 at 13:17
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@R.M. Sorry, I tried to update my answer to account for this yesterday, but apparently I forgot to hit save. It's all about passing out of line of sight; so, the transition in either direction always only happens when you pass out of sight of all observers and vise versa – Nosajimiki Mar 14 '23 at 14:02
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@SDSHuge2.0 It's about passing out of sight; so, there is not a fixed point you transition between worlds, just the first position no one can see you and you cant see anyone else. – Nosajimiki Mar 14 '23 at 14:06
I was going to answer basically this, but with the path revised slightly so that the last step or so involved walking around the last tree 3 times, and disappearing from view sometime after the first time you can no longer be observed (obviously switching between planes of existence is a quantum effect of some kind) – aslum Mar 14 '23 at 20:41
Witch Weather might help here? If the hill has a pond and plenty of shade, then it may have mist or fog — so you fade into and out of view with distance anyway, even without the magic tree loop… – Chronocidal Mar 14 '23 at 21:32
@R.M. What exactly would be the problem of your friend sees you reappear? "Line of sight" is usually important in these things. Simply turning around at the last turn might make you return to this realm. If your friend happens to be looking that way, well, he'll see it happen. So what? – Mar 14 '23 at 23:50
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@fredsbend Consistency mostly. As described, the OP makes LoS an important feature in getting into faerie, so, thematically, its best to make it the defining element of the whole process. Where magic is involved pretty much any answer can work, but things that follow a similar set of rules tend to feel more right. – Nosajimiki Mar 15 '23 at 14:14
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I wonder what my (horizontally mounted) microgravity sensor sees. – Joshua Mar 15 '23 at 21:18
So if Bobby goes and sees the witches, and we then surround the hilltop with eyes (there's some "the hills have eyes" reference in there), we can trap Bobby in the faerie realm? – Flater Mar 16 '23 at 05:17
@Flater Not exactly. He simply has to walk farther through the faerie world before he gets beyond anyone's sight... though I suppose there could be a moment of panic where he thinks he's trapped if he tries to walk out where someone is looking. – Nosajimiki Mar 16 '23 at 13:37
And what happens when your friend gets worried and decides to chop down one or more of the trees while you're in the fae realm? Are you then stuck forever? – Darrel Hoffman Mar 16 '23 at 18:51
@DarrelHoffman That would be a writers choice. Maybe that would collapse the portal trapping him because the trees are the door way itself, or maybe it would have no effect like filling a keyhole with superglue on a door that unlatches from the inside. – Nosajimiki Mar 17 '23 at 14:51

score 18 · Answer 2 · answered Mar 14 '23 at 11:36

Brace yourself for a surprise, you won't see the witches. This is actually a built-in safety mechanism in the Charm Walk, if you are observed by someone not following the path along with you it won't let you in. It wouldn't be much of a secret entrance if anybody could easily figure out how to use it, right?

If you've ever wondered why pockets of the Faerie Realm tend to attach in fairly remote places, this is the reason. It's kind of difficult to visit your cauldron unobserved when the entrance is located on London Bridge.

Ruadhan · Answer 3 · 2023-03-14T08:55:14.493

You're treating this as a topological problem, when in fact it's a very artificial Locking and Permission system instead.

Your friend never sees the cauldron, and cannot join you in the final walk up to the hill and get anywhere.

You perceive the cauldron, you walk towards it and your friend sees you simply vanish into thin air as you cross an invisible boundary between worlds.

If you were walking together, they proceed up to the empty hilltop. If you were holding their hand, you each perceive the other vanishing regardless.

Only someone who has completed the steps may traverse the portal or even perceive it. And only things they brought with them while traversing the forest can come with them.

If you left your backpack at the final tree before you started, and you picked it up at the last minute, it'd fall to the ground as you crossed the portal.

Once you've completed the steps, you'll see the witches and their cauldron whether you peek around the left or right side of the final tree. The trees no longer matter, you've unlocked the right to traverse realms for an unspecified amount of time or until you go too far from the hill and the whole thing resets.

@Joshua Are you thinking in terms that the person attempting to cross the portal will have been breathing in and out throughout the walk and will inevitably have all the air (including any dissolved in their blood) left behind when they cross the portal? The easy solution is to accept that things inside a person count as part of them for the purposes of the portal. This is medieval magic, not science. That the air in your lungs comes with you is sort of taken as read. — Ruadhan, Mar 16 '23 at 08:37

score 11 · Answer 4 · answered Mar 13 '23 at 19:00

You are projecting an avatar into the witches' realm. (Very similar: good old AD&D astral projection).

Your friend sees you complete the ritual and simply stop there. You're just standing there gazing into space, breathing normally, and not moving.

In the witches' realm, you are now an avatar of yourself: a physical projection that is, basically, you, but is really more like a temporary body double. You can fully interact, buy things, sell things, etc, but when you leave, regardless of how you leave, you find yourself standing back where you completed the ritual, having returned to your body, plus or minus any changes made while projecting. Your friend watching you might suddenly see you jolt, inexplicably carrying potions, even though you clearly did not have them a second ago. (Another option: time is different. You actually had a 20 minute conversation and bartering session but from your friend's perspective you froze for a half second and then somehow had potions pop into your hands. Time dilation helps resolve a lot of "what if" scenarios.)

If you forgo the time dilation, then most likely any interaction with your real self (on Earth), breaks the projection and calls you back instantly. One minute you're chatting with the witches and suddenly you're staring at your friend who is looking concerned and poking you with a stick.

Either way, you probably shouldn't see your friend while in the witches' domain. If you look south, you see whatever is to their south, in their own realm. (Unless, I suppose, the hilltop is the full extent of their realm. Then maybe you see a bit of a hazy atmospheric wave and outside of that is the rest of your world. But for sure the world cannot see your avatar, for the same reason they can't see the witches.)

score 8 · Answer 5 · answered Mar 13 '23 at 14:41

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This is what's known as a MITM attack, or a Mage In The Middle attack. Their magical set up relies on giving you a token once you complete a series of actions which gives you access to a magical portal into their realm.

If they just chase after you and you run into the portal, you'll vanish from their vision. Knowing exactly where you vanished can allow skilled mages to force open the portal again. This is one example I have seen when some sort of golem man hybrid attempted to enter a forest sanctuary.

If you hold their hand just as you cross, there's a variety of things that can happen. They might be pulled through. Your clothes and items you sell can go through, why not other people? Or, if they have appropriate security, your companion might be tossed out or exploded. You would have to ask the witches what security they put on. A skilled mage might transform themselves into something unobtrusive and avoid any security scans.

answered Mar 13 '23 at 14:41

Nepene Nep

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Does it make a difference if I bring another person and we are in looove? – Daron Mar 13 '23 at 14:49
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You will be more unhappy if they get exploded, I guess. – Nepene Nep Mar 13 '23 at 14:54
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Upvote for talking about Magic and using a picture of the Black Templars (the most opposed to the use of Psykers in all of 40K lore) - plus I know which animation that's from - hehe – TheDemonLord Mar 13 '23 at 19:56
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So W40K and Sonic, can you provide the source of the image please? – jnovacho Mar 14 '23 at 20:10
Sonic gets cucked. – Nepene Nep Mar 16 '23 at 16:32

score 7 · Answer 6 · answered Mar 13 '23 at 16:45

This is Schrödinger's Gate. When you complete the path, you will be both through the portal and not through the portal. If someone follows you, or even holds you hand, they will become distracted at the point of transition. Once they are no longer observing you, you will cease to exist for them.

score 6 · Answer 7 · answered Mar 14 '23 at 04:41

I would say that there is a distinct possibility that while you will be able to see the witches, having completed the required path, you and a second person would both be able to see the hill but only you can see the other reality super-imposed on the hill.

They are effectively an intangible ghost to that place and vice-versa... where as you have made yourself tangible to both planes through the complicated ritual walk. If you move too far away from the node where you have made that attunement, then the other you snaps back into your reality, requiring you to start the ritual again.

As a side possibility to this answer... It wouldn't surprise me if the hill is neither actual plane and is a kind island of overlap between the two full places of existence. The witches themselves have an identical hill in their plane which requires a similar (but probably not identical) path required to end up in the overlapping island which is manifesting as a hill.

If you are worried about what would happen in this case when your friend (probably standing half way through a witch or a cauldron or both!) watches you walk down the hill and weave through trees in the completion of the second "planar attunement", you would not reappear around the first obstacle and your friend would disappear, even though you could still see the hill and the witches... in a mirror of seeing the witches the first time on the hill.

Monty Wild · Answer 8 · 2023-03-14T22:51:18.197

This problem would appear to be four dimensional, not merely three-dimensional.

There is a fourth, magical dimension. It can't be seen, but it exists nevertheless. The path through the trees is the path that you must follow to climb a ramp from the fourth dimension's ground level to the fourth dimension's magical hilltop level.

Quite simply, by walking the required path, you're climbing the magical dimension's ramp. If you stray off the path, you fall back down to the magical ground level, and even if you return to where you were in three dimensions, you're beneath the fourth-dimensional ramp, and must start again.

The fourth dimension is small, and a person is not very big in the fourth dimension anyway, so if you were to fall off the ramp in the fourth dimension, you wouldn't notice any impact beyond that usually felt when walking.

To an outside observer, you would appear to go around the trees, but you would also appear to get smaller, appearing to be more distant, until you disappeared as you passed behind the hill.

As for the other parts of the ritual, they allow you to interact with the ramp. A person who followed you without doing the other parts of the ritual would see you get smaller and disappear even though they were otherwise right beside you in three dimensions, since the distance between you has been increasing in the fourth dimension.

As for how you can leave, you could retrace your steps, thus going back down the ramp, which would let you return to the magical hilltop by simply going back the way you came. Alternatively, you could just walk off the hilltop, and fall off the fourth dimensional platform/ramp, meaning that you would need to go back to the beginning to get back onto the ramp.

score 2 · Answer 9 · answered Mar 13 '23 at 18:17

You shouldn't be able to see the witches until you have past the last two trees one to the left and one to the right. Once that has occurred you should be able to see them and your friend should not.

So either If you both walk to the hilltop together you will still be able to see them but he will not.

OR

When you pass the last trees you disappear from your friends view (and he from yours) at the same time that the witches appear.

score 2 · Answer 10 · answered Mar 14 '23 at 13:40

Ask the witches

Option 1 - You are allowed to invite others

If you are allowed to have friends with you then you can grab your friend and bring them with you. They will not be able to perceive what they are going through so it will be boring or scary for them.

Option 2 - You are not allowed to extend the invitation

You will be able to grab your friend and drag them to the gate. They may not pass, so you need to take precautions not to break their hand.

Option 3 - You can bring them in but not by design

It could be that the charm is resolved by your password and dance, but if your friend does not do the dance they are rude. If witches hate one thing it's ~~pyres~~ rudeness.

score 2 · Answer 11 · answered Mar 15 '23 at 16:59

I cannot add much to Nosajimiki's excellent answer, however, it seems clear to me that as you go around the hill, you are out of sight from those who are on the opposite side of the hill. And, once you have started the somatic journey, you no longer re-appear to those when you would expect to come back into sight.

Therefore, while you may (or may not) see your friends to the South, they cannot see you, unless you walk away from the hill and lose the somatic journey - but even then, maybe you remain on the portal road until you can appear from behind a bush or tree. The hidden/revealed aspect of your journey might just require temporary occlusion (as well as correct attention to somatic and verbal actions).

If your friends start walking north towards you, they cannot see you. It's quite possible that you cannot see them - because you are no longer on un-magical ground. The common mechanic is a mist - but it could be that you only see what is found in both realms - and indeed it is the conjunction of similarities which open the gateway.

Far more dangerous would be if your friends chopped down one of trees that you had already past. You would either find yourself trapped between worlds, or trapped in faerie until another portal was revealed to you.

score 1 · Answer 12 · answered Mar 16 '23 at 13:17

Your Friends Will See You But Not The Witches

Let's make this even more interesting.

Say one of your friends brought a camcorder with them, and as you and another friend walked past the last tree, they record what happens. You've completed the full chain, and the other friend has not.

Their camera will see both of you on the other side of the tree, doing whatever you choose to do - but will not see any witches, or any other unusual activity.

Neither will your friend - in fact, if you make any mention of the witches or the cauldron, they will think you very strange and possibly insane.

This is because the realm that the witches occupy is actually the exact same space - but unless you chant the incantation and follow the exact path, their realm essentially does not exist for you. Your friend could very well pass right through them and wouldn't even be aware.

As soon as you walk far enough away from that hilltop, you too will become unaware of the Witches and their activities.

This was my first thought too, but since you can take things in and out of the faerie world, you need to also address what your friend sees when you go up with a wheelbarrow full of potatoes and come back with a box of potions. — Nosajimiki, Mar 16 '23 at 13:31
@Nosajimiki That depends on whether or not objects from the Faerie World need a similar incantation to be pulled out of their parallel dimension - if they do, then as soon as you are far enough away they would disappear from your hand. If they don't, they would appear to those outside the circle as soon as you are far enough away. — Zibbobz, Mar 16 '23 at 14:49

score 0 · Answer 13 · answered Mar 13 '23 at 23:28

Suggestion: the magic creates a wormholelike tunnel that collapses if someone interferes with it. They may be able to see a glimpse what lies on the other side of the portal but if they approach it, it collapses just the same way if you made a mistake following the path.

score 0 · Answer 14 · answered Mar 14 '23 at 05:59

Space Dilation

No matter how long or how quickly your friend walks towards you, he never reaches you, as the ground between you seems to eat up his steps without getting any smaller. You can cover the distance easily, but that breaks the "don't go too far away" escape clause.