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How To fasten rubberwood desktop to electric motorized steel base, in easy detach/ knock-down way using Fasteners? e.g. Wood inserts?

I'm designing & putting together a workstation desk with the following traits:

  • Electric motorized (lift capacity: 120 kg) & heavy Steel frame base (30kg)
    • Its a knock-down design put together using hex key-driven M6 M8 & few M10 bolts
  • Rubberwood desk/ tabletop

So for consistency with the above & need for easy disassembly, I'd prefer to use similar metric bolts.

Hence, I'm considering attaching the top with metric bolts from the bottom, through the pass through layers of a steel base and a rubber cushion spacer + washer (Total: ~11mm), into matching threaded inserts.

  • Upon reading online the insert types I found are these and am told that top left thread-in types for hardwood would be suitable.

  • Commenters/ responders here have posted there are special types of other better Fasteners. I'd like to know, review them for additional "holding power" and related benefits they bring.

4 types

The rubberwood top is 18mm thick & pass through non-wood layers (~11mm). I do not know the final dimensions of the top, but assume a rectangle roughly 1m wide and under 2m long. [The OP is free to update these dimensions as necessary --jdv]
(OP: Size subject to change but within above & hence need insert for detachability)

My main questions are about the fasteners/ inserts.

  • What is the safe maximum depth the inserts can be made into the rubberwood? Will this material hold inserts at all?
  • Which insert style is recommended in this application?
    • What special type of fasteners supersede wood inserts I've mentioned so far?

Follow-on question: Does the size of the bolt (M6, M8, M10, etc.) and matching insert matter for this application?

Update Follow-up to this Question:

Noticed a lot of variety of combinations even in threaded inserts of the hardwood type: Self tapping (advise by jdv), Slotted, 3 holes/ blind holes, collar, Hex, Reservoir, etc. (Pic from some German site)

(Image is big so linked, but can be inserted if SE folks ok - Or should these slot/ holes/ etc meta parameters go to a new Q?)

What pros cons of these in my scenario and what's recommended or to avoid? Why bother asking all this?

Scouted a dozen mom & pop hardware shops I went to did not have any.(Nothing like Home Depot).

I do see some of the above variety on local business yellow pages listing site, so they do exist & have to be found, but they don't respond to me/ consumers.

I'll eventually run into and find some variants, just not sure which ones - hence, I need to know the "yes, okay, maybe, avoid, no way" of some of the common types.

High Res measurement pics:

All the layers I want to sandwich together: Image 2

The metal and rubber layers: Image 1

Width of the rubber washer: Image 3

Alex S
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    There is a lot of what feels like unnecessary detail here -- so much I can't quite discern the actual question. For example, I still don't know if you want through-holes through the material, or if you want the fasteners to be hidden (possibly from the bottom). An [edit] would help. Get rid of the crazy formatting and ask the specific question you want to ask. Don't forget to search here and DIY.SE for previous Q&A. –  Oct 20 '21 at 12:18
  • @jdv - Took me a lot of back & forth to put it together. It could possibly benefit from some reorg for easier go through - let me try to do that and update it. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 12:34
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    Just say what have you done and what do you want to do. Throw the pics in with simple captions and be done. Never mind the fancy formatting. –  Oct 20 '21 at 12:42
  • It isn't clear what this assembly is doing. Is it just sitting there? Are there forces pushing the sheet sideways? Pulling the sheets apart? With a full description, we might be able to help. – Aloysius Defenestrate Oct 20 '21 at 13:02
  • @AloysiusDefenestrate - Apologies - Its table top on a steel frame, being bound with Wood Inserts & Bolts instead directly scewing into Wood. Updated cleaned data also. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 13:32
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    So have you used the inserts? Or are you asking if you should? You have to account for wood movement. There are proper ways to go about attaching a tabletop. – gnicko Oct 20 '21 at 16:04
  • Is the insert to allow wood movement? Honestly, I still can't figure out the question here. Any one of those bolt sizes will do for a regular table. If this is being used in a more heavy duty scenario, then bump the size of the fasteners. But you generally size the fastener to the job. If this is a 2m long top, just go for larger fasteners. What is the exact problem or scenario you are running into? –  Oct 20 '21 at 16:42
  • @GregNickoloff - I have not yet, and would like to use them. Why? Most of the metal frame is held by Allen Key bolts. I will, may be moving and/ or change table top/ have to undo & reattach - So modularity. What proper ways outside of permanently screwing it on to it? Need for it to be easy remove/ access. Open to ideas outside of permanetly scewing in desktop. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 16:47
  • @jdv - I have 6 binding points on the underlying metal frame. This is simply in lieu of directly screwing in being replaced by Insert + Hex Socket Bolt. For easy remove/ reattach. PS: I've asked primarily about "wood Insert depth" without damaging the wood. I do not know how deep is safe. Given that the Bolt is INSERT DEPTH + Additional Frame stuff. Let's no drift into the dimensions of the entire table top & frame. For ref: Orig direct 6 screws data is there if you'd like but also says not to use those screws for less than 20mm wood top. DEPTH of WOOD INSERT for 18mm. THATS ALL I NEED. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 16:55
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    Ok, so you are not expecting through holes. You want to have the insert installed so it bottoms out and the right sized bolt just ends just past it. I think you ought to study how Ikea, et al, do this when they attach panels to metal frames. You just carefully measure your depths, drill out the void, install the inserts and then run the bolts through, cutting them to length if necessary. You will have to allow for wood movement, and this is often done with slotted holes in the metal. This could be an answer, but I'm not convinced this Q&A is a good fit for WW.SE... –  Oct 20 '21 at 16:59
  • @jdv - I am aware of the above in a general sense. Lots of ikea history. FOCUS: 18mm Rubberwood - I am told 13mm max, or 12mm depth else i'll risk the wood THIS IS ALL I AM ASKING. The rest of the data is derivative from this and SPECIFIC numbers i've already measured and posted. Simple math. But I dont know WOOD WORK, or M6 vs M8 hence asking for tiny specifics. Rest i've done the homework & posted above. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 17:04
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    Rule of thumb is no more than 2/3rds the dimension of a material, so the inserts should be no more than 2/3rds deep. Your challenge is finding fasteners that'll have enough thread engagement. I've been asking for more focused details since the beginning! Most of what you have provided is unnecessary, and occluded any specific question you might have had hiding in there. If a number of folks don't get what you are asking, then the problem might not be the readers, right? –  Oct 20 '21 at 17:06
  • @jdv - Isnt the whole point of inserts to NOT have through holes? and keep the wood safe/ safer? – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 17:06
  • Shrug? An insert can be blind or not. I don't know what you want to do. –  Oct 20 '21 at 17:08
  • @jdv - You mean the Inserts or bolts? I am aware that "outer side" penetration into wood is key for holding the insert. So, if there are designs/ types of that with better OUER hold im listening. W regards to bolts the "rubber cushion ring" has an 8mm approx, I wonder what M8 bolt outer dia is. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 17:13
  • @jdv - In my limited newbie research and insights received from people inserts seem to be limited depth - just wasnt sure what numbers/ ratios hold for diff hard/ soft wood types. PS: what is insert can be blind or not. - did not see or hear any such thing yet. Please enlighten. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 17:15
  • Inserts come in many sizes and installation modes. The ones I am familiar with are simple hex-head self-tapping that work like woodscrews. They have a minimum depth and a expect a certain sized pilot hole. There are other styles that are more complicated for specific applications. –  Oct 20 '21 at 17:18
  • Your 2nd pic shows what appears to be a rubber grommet going through the metal frame. Is that what we're seeing? If so, the rubber will, most likely, be sufficient to absorb the wood movement (expansion/contraction in the wood due to seasonal temperature & humidity changes), especially if it's soft rubber. If it's hard rubber, there may not be enough give. Without room to move, your wood table top will end up cracking over time. – FreeMan Oct 20 '21 at 17:57
  • @FreeMan It’s mix of soft & hard. Let me check it tomorrow on it’s sub structure. It’s called rubber cushion but it’s mixed. Will share more of that tomorrow. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 18:06
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    This is very hard to understand but I think you start from a mistake. You should not use inserts for normal attachment. they allow bolts to be removed multiple times, is that what you seek?? If no, such inserts are not necessary. And also I don't think you allow for wood movement. All big tables require this! – Volfram K Oct 20 '21 at 19:25
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    This question is poorly written and not of much use for anyone in the future. If not closed it should be drastically edited to remove all the unnecessary verbiage. – gnicko Oct 20 '21 at 20:17
  • @GregNickoloff 1. Respectfully disagree. There's always shifting tradeoffs between specificity & abstraction. Sometimes excess specific data can distract, other times lack of it can confuse, misdirect parties into different assumptions. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:18
  • @GregNickoloff - Once, some things are resolved, I will try to genericize it for greater hits & use for people - How? Standing Desks are a big trend now due to WFH - Peoples workspace needs are changin at home & being able to knock down chaange using modular hex driven bolts is how rest of underlying metal frames are done. Why not the top also. It may not be convention, but neither was the entire SPACE of knock down DIY self assemble disassmeble engineering. Lots of people needing modularity & reconfigurablity. Japanse wood joinery is one way, we humans will find / combine new ones. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:21
  • @VolframK - Understandable PoV, but as I shared with GN above - changing times, changing ways. I will not be having access to drills & power tools everytime & being able to knock down, pack compactly and move is key for those of us in tight scenarios of space & time. I am 22 hr flight away from Home Depot. PS: I am open to other "easy removeable" fastener ideas for knock down, removal/ disassembly. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:25
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    @AlexS - You're missing my point. You've dumped a pile of seemingly unnecessary/unrelated facts here and asked us to figure it all out for you. The question you ask is: "What size threaded connectors should I use for attaching an 18mm hardwood panel to a steel frame?" Sure you can mention that it's a desktop and that you want it to be easily disassembled, etc. but three years from now someone with the same question is going to run across this and they aren't going to get a lot of value out of it as written. – gnicko Oct 21 '21 at 17:41
  • @GregNickoloff - Ok. In summary that was the question & hence the title. For learning & refinement pls list and specify what info was "unncessary/ unrelated" - SPECIFY so I can process and respond else I cant peek into your mind to know what you deemed as above. Lets do this. PS: If anything, I have been asked for more info that I did not wish to get into. And if I dont give info, I get flagged for not doing homework and posting half assed Q. So lets gauge & refine - which specific info is extraneous. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 17:50
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    So table must be knockdown? ok ok I try to break it down for you. No need for more than M6 as these are already so strong. Wood screws to attach tops are usually thinner and hold is weaker! Brass or steel does not matter. Flat head or hex drive does not matter. You want screws min 5-6mm from surface, so 12 or 13mm inserts max. But 10mm no problem and more safe. For M6 coarse, every revolution = 1mm deeper. So bolts M6 x 20mm max. Minimum 4 threads engaged is strong enough, M6 x 16mm no problem if closest size available. – Volfram K Oct 21 '21 at 23:21
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    @VolframK turn that into an answer, and have someone edit this Q and remove all the useless info, and we have a decent Q&A. Otherwise, this Q&A is basically noise, even with my silly answer. –  Oct 22 '21 at 12:43
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    I've heavily edited the Q to reflect what we think are the actual concerns seen in the comments. If this is not sufficient to bring it into alignment with @VolframK's answer then the community can close as they see fit. –  Oct 22 '21 at 15:10
  • @jdv - Muchos gracias for the rewrite/ layout. I added some relevant context that was missing earlier & some that was lost in the process. When tons of electric desk folks start showing up here, it'll be worth it all. – Alex S Oct 22 '21 at 17:44
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    @AlexS SE sites prefer Q&A with a single question, or maybe at most a related question. I see you've edited things to ask multiple questions. This is not easily answerable. Multiple questions means multiple Q&A. –  Oct 22 '21 at 21:04
  • @jdv - I get that about SEs, but at times when one is not familiar or learning and limited in their knowledge of the space & terminology the process takes a bit of refining to point to what is actually needed. As per my research and reading all i came across was wood inserts. You said there are other better fasteners (I was not even aware of the word/ category). Again, right now its just ONE question: How to fix it such a way - what fitting, depth, materials, sizes etc are just parameters of the How To. It'd be pointless to me or any future readers without the "numerical / ratios" data points – Alex S Oct 24 '21 at 08:01
  • @VolframK and JDV you can decide how much you wish to swing this to wider/ generic or narrower/ specific. But outside of SCREWS, for anyone who could benefit from knockdown mechanisms to attach the wood this is the GOAL. Sit Stand desks more popular. I've seen tons wood wasted damaged via nails/ screws - folks not caring to salvage or spent time/ energy to; this is future direction of eco friendly wood & tree saving mechanisms. I just dont like to see things be "wasted" or thrown - Which I had to do with my first student L desk - Why? could not knock it down. Landfill. – Alex S Oct 24 '21 at 08:05

3 Answers3

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Edit for the new information that this is a knockdown (K/D) project.

This probably does require the use of threaded inserts
Although you can thread wood directly1 inserts are intended to provide very durable threading for machine screws/bolts in wood and other softer materials, allowing for regular and repeated adjustments over time, especially under heavy load, or for complete removal and reinsertion of the fasteners as might be needed for knockdown furniture, especially if frequent disassembly is going to be needed.


You haven't asked about this but as mentioned already in the Comments it is an important factor.

Allowance for wood movement
The key thing with any tabletop made from solid wood is to allow for seasonal movement.

All solid wood experiences seasonal expansion and contraction perpendicular to the grain direction, see previous Answer to which direction does wood expand?

For any type of glued-up panel — regardless if made from many smaller pieces2 or two or more wider boards — or single very wide boards, where the width is approximately 460mm (~18") you need to start considering movement. At widths in excess of 600mm (24") some allowance usually becomes vital. The wider the tabletop the more allowance is needed.

From what we have been told up to to this point there may or may not be enough allowance naturally available in this desk due to the size of the holes in the metal frame. Note that the smaller the machine screws used here the more allowance is built it, because it leaves more space around each fastener — approximately 12-13mm for each pair of screws if M6 are used, based on the stated size of the holes.

See previous Answer for a little more on how you would normally attach a solid-wood tabletop.

If you don't build in some allowance for movement the table could experience serious problems. Normally the issues are breakage or tearing out of the screws, or warping or cracking of the tabletop. Here there's also a chance the steel framework could be distorted because the pressure exerted by expanding or shrinking wood can be considerable.


1 Threads in wood are of course more durable in some harder hardwoods, e.g. maple, but they can work even in softwoods and weak hardwoods like poplar. In softer or more crumbly woods (which includes some good hardwoods) the threading can be substantially reinforced by dribbling in some superglue into the hole.

2 These smaller pieces may be called staves, hence "stave construction" although regrettably this is now most commonly, and incorrectly, sold as "butcher block".

Graphus
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  • Very interesting insights :) I totally get where you're coming from - but as you mentioned; My case - All this is because "Knockdown K/D" modularity/ ability is key for me. If I cannot knock it down with a Hex key, I am not buying it - I've slept on a floor with a yoga mat/ sleeping bag for years - even when I was near a home depot & ikea. My 1st buy an L shaped w scews & nails, was a god awful pain to deal with. 2nd was metal frame glass desk - hex knock down friendly - loved it. Just how life has been- Storage Units & nomadic. Maybe not for Most WW SE folks. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:35
  • @VolframK - ^ More info on why. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:41
  • Fair point on using woodscrews. My guess is that the OP is interested in construction that can be taken apart and put back together again. Heck, my router table is attached to a base using bolts and inserts just so I can remove it and put the scroll-saw (which hardly ever gets used, and really is just a free acquisition) in its place. I guess file that under "small shop problems". –  Oct 21 '21 at 17:31
  • So the table IS to be knockdown? Why are we only hearing about this now? Didn't you think this would be relevant info to include in the Question? (As would that it's a standing desk BTW.) :-| Anyway put that aside for now, you haven't given the dimensions yet. Unless this desk is much smaller than I'm guessing you do have to account for movement, and attachment through a metal framework tends not to provide it (or at least enough of it). But it's impossible to advise on this front until you tell us what size it is. – Graphus Oct 22 '21 at 08:10
  • @Graphus - I was just slammed above for "excessive" information :) - I figured using Inserts is an automatic indicator of hex key knock-down assemble/ disassemble. You all probably come from woodwork world, where im a newbie, as I come from the knock-down world. PS: Steel frame is 100% Hex drive M bolts - I did mention how I wanted to maintain that binding if i could. – Alex S Oct 22 '21 at 17:40
  • Without being told you were looking to make a knockdown piece of furniture I presumed (and I suspect others did too) that you were a non-woodworker who had read about threaded inserts and just thought they were a good idea for this, or merely assumed they had to be used because you were attaching to a metal frame instead of a wood substructure. So anyway, have I missed it or are we still waiting for the dimensions of the tabletop? – Graphus Oct 23 '21 at 00:18
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I would thread holes into tabletop because I know this is strong enough because wood screws are strong enough for same purpose, and there is no insert. But if you choose inserts here is my answer.

Allowance for wood movement to be addressed. We are not yet sure if this is needed or how much.

No need for more than M6 as these are already so strong. Wood screws to attach table tops are usually thinner and the hold is weaker!

Brass or steel does not matter. Both strong enough.

Flat head or hex drive does not matter, just 2 styles. No difference in strength. Hex easier to fit clean because driver size is exact.

You want screws min 5-6mm from surface, so 12 or 13mm inserts max. But 10mm no problem and more safe. You will not use all threads anyway. Be exact when you drill holes!

For metric coarse, pitch = advancement. Pitch of M6 is 1mm so every revolution = 1mm deeper. Gives M6 x 20mm max [11mm pass through metal frame and rubber rings + 9mm engagement in insert for 1mm clearance from bottom]

Minimum 4 threads engaged is strong enough, so M6 x 16mm no problem if closest size available.

Volfram K
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    Assuming a fair-sized rectangular top, we will definitely need to allow for wood movement. For this design the holes in the steel base should be made into slots along the direction of this movement across the grain. Otherwise, this is the most succinct and correct answer to the heavily edited question. –  Oct 22 '21 at 15:08
  • I would mention that you want to use the softwood insert variation, given what we know about rubberwood. –  Oct 22 '21 at 15:13
  • @VolframK - So i keep reading allowance for wood movement & all are using terms of "Grain" that Im no good with. Are we saying movement in the Horizontal plane of wood panel/ sheet? So the 4 corner & 2 center frame holes in metal frame are not small - quite larger - almost as large as cushion but bit smaller approx 0.5" | The metal frame has a mix of M6 M8 few M10 - so whichever holds better overall advantage - movement space vs more thread based hold. Pros Cons? – Alex S Oct 22 '21 at 16:16
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    @AlexS Wood movement: Changes in the relative humidity tend to cause wood to expand/shrink in a direction perpendicular to the wood grain. (the lines in the wood). A good summary can be found here: https://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/2_Wood_Movement/2_Wood_Movement.htm You may be most interested in the last section of the page. – gnicko Oct 22 '21 at 18:59
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    @AlexS, I explained what wood movement is, and in what axis it works in my Answer just in case you (and any future readers) knew nothing about — I specified it was perpendicular to the grain, and put it more clearly and re-emphasised this by referring to width more than once. I don't know how to say it more plainly I'm sorry. – Graphus Oct 23 '21 at 00:09
  • @jdv, textbook hardness of hevea is 960, 10 more than for cherry and I don't see people treating cherry as though it were a softwood...... obviously there's no telling what this tabletop's wood is actually going to be like but from the hevea I've been around — including a well-used dining table that has lost much of its finish from over-enthusiastic cleaning LOL — I think using the hardwood inserts would be appropriate. – Graphus Oct 23 '21 at 00:32
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    Because rubberwood I think has low movement then possibly there will be enough allowance for movement built into the desk from holes 12-13mm size. But this is 100% guess without real width. I will give you approximate values: for tabletop 600mm wide movement maybe is 11.7mm, perfect :) but if top is 1000mm wide 19.5mm :( – Volfram K Oct 23 '21 at 06:53
  • @Graphus, anything "textbook" is only part of this story. We don't know what this natural material in hand looks like, and my guess is that this hardness info is from perfectly harvested older-growth. The rest of the industry treats rubberwood like a soft hardwood. It has large open pores and wider growth lines, which is a sign that for some fasteners it is wise to treat it more like a softwood. Of course, there is no better information that trying both inserts and seeing. But, in my experience, those inserts for hardwoods are for very typical close-grained and small-pore hardwoods. –  Oct 23 '21 at 13:27
  • @jdv, I did say that there's no telling what this wood is actually like. I see what you're saying about it being a softer hardwood, and yes it definitely is, but there's soft and there's soft. Like I say people don't treat cherry as though it's pine and hevea is at least in the same ballpark.... the same one that Honduran mahogany is in for that matter! Now seriously, anyone treat that like a softwood? Real concern on this front should be reserved for something soft, like poplar, which is roughly on par with spruce, softer than Doug fir. – Graphus Oct 23 '21 at 18:24
  • @Graphus - :) I read that but it would help me & others to know the direction of grain in this scenario, so as to not assume wrongly directions / vectors in 3 Dimensions. Is that "the lengthwise pattern" does it change for other woods that have circular & other patterns? – Alex S Oct 24 '21 at 08:11
  • @VolframK Appreciate all the responses and insights. I'm in humid sea side city and am told brass > steel for corrosion. How/ when does one choose over other? 2. If using a M6 or M8 10mm what width pilot should it be for optimal Thread penetration and catchment. Tool to use for pilot hole? Drill bit, vs Forstner bit (not finding smaller online in IND) vs Diamon hole saw bit (5-22mm) – Alex S Oct 24 '21 at 17:57
  • And any epoxy or glue etc for the insert? – Alex S Oct 24 '21 at 18:13
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    Steel vs brass does not matter for strength, choose brass for 100% no rust guarantee. I think you will have to use normal drill bit and not Forstner because they are not made so small, pilot is I think 8.5mm or 9mm. And normal bit can have depth stop added to make sure holes are exact depth! Many video guides to these inserts exist on YouTube, I think you should look at those for more guidance . – Volfram K Oct 25 '21 at 05:33
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    @AlexS the pilot hole for the inserts will be mostly dependent on the size and style of the insert. The optimal size hole should be included with the label or documentation for the inserts, or you could open another Q&A. –  Oct 25 '21 at 13:35
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    @Graphus I guess all I can say is that I have a "rubberwood" cabinet I repurposed for a router table, and I used the same inserts intended for softwood, and it bit just right into the surrounding material. These same inserts are the ones used in acoustic guitars with bolt-on becks, so it is intended for "mahogany" (whatever that is these days). But the difference in installation between the two cases was unidentifiable. –  Oct 25 '21 at 13:41
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    @AlexS in your last picture, "Width of the rubber washer:", the grain (those lines you see in the surface) run in the same direction as the tape measure. There will be some but very minimal wood movement in that direction. So little that woodworkers do not worry about it. The movement will happen perpendicular to the grain (direction of the tape) and that is what you will have to account for. There will be cases where the grain is "circular" for small areas around knots, but that doesn't impact movement in any significant way. – FreeMan Oct 25 '21 at 16:07
  • @jdv - At pennies for them, if & when I find them, I doubt there'll be any labels or documentation. - volfram - Noted on the pilots, hoping / wondering if slotted self-tapping ones would work better.. also been watching youtu & wishing for home depot :) - scouted a dozen hardware shops today - zilch. FreeMan - Gotcha on the grains. Muchos Gracias. – Alex S Oct 25 '21 at 18:02
  • I told you hex is easier to fit clean. I think it not likely you will have exact size of flat head unless you own many screwdrivers! Also brass is soft, much less risk of damage driving hex because fit is exact. But does not matter if you use trick found on YouTube to drive inserts haha – Volfram K Oct 26 '21 at 06:55
  • @VolframK I got that hex drive > small slot drive. Not that there’s a diff big wide slot that seems to be going wood side seemingly for cutting to augment self tapping threads? Not for driving. I shared links in last comment to jdv. – Alex S Oct 26 '21 at 06:59
  • I don't understand about big wide slot, all inserts must be 'self tapping' or they do not work! I do not see links in comment to jdv – Volfram K Oct 26 '21 at 07:15
  • @VolframK - Someone found bolts for me, but WI no go. Someone shared a site to get some WIs - before I order 1 quick Q. If 18mm = 10mm WI. Lets say 6-12 months later i get / replace a top of 30mm / 1.25" - what mm insert depth would you recommend for that? I'll add that to the order as well & keep them handy just in case. – Alex S Oct 29 '21 at 20:23
  • I dont understand WI. But for 30mm top you can use same insert type and screws, 9mm hold in metal is v strong and loading is spread over number of fasteners. Only 4 inserts/screws each only holds 1/4 of load which is small. If you worry strength would not be enough get longer inserts and longer screws, 30mm top means you can use M6 x 20 inserts if you want. – Volfram K Oct 30 '21 at 03:17
  • Why 30mm hardwood for only desk??? Most desks have only 18mm particleboard tops! – Volfram K Oct 30 '21 at 03:20
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The question at hand is "how deep should I make a hole in relatively soft wood for a blind insert for an M-sized bolt?"

A good rule of thumb is don't remove more than 2/3rds the material in any given dimension when doing joinery. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but a nice start. In this case it'll work just fine because nothing here is critical.

The follow-on question, which size of M bolt to use is up to you. You want to choose the size appropriate for the entire dimension of the panel, with larger being better for shear and tensile strength. But your main challenge will be getting good thread engagement at such shallow depths, since it'll be the threads giving you that tensile strength. As long as you can safely move the item by gripping the panel this will probably work. But depending on the entire dimensions you may find that only 6 points of contact mean threads rip out easily no matter what.

For this wood use the screw-in self-tapping inserts, with or without glue.

Choosing more expensive fasteners made out of tougher material might be required.

Allowing for panel movement will be necessary in most cases. For this design that'll mean slotted holes in the metal along the axis where the panel is across the grain.

However, much of this is application driven. How strong does this have to be? If this is just a big table then typical installation and typical fasteners will be fine, even with only 1/3 fastener thread engagement. But maybe you need to be sure? In which case you can epoxy the inserts, use larger inserts designed to engage more fully with the material, and use fasteners with finer threads and higher strength (and, if possible, maximize your thread engagement).

A word on failure modes

There are two failure modes here:

  1. The inserts tear out of their self-tapped threaded holes. The weakest part of any metal-to-wood contact (or, indeed, any good glue joint) are the wood fibres around that contact. This is the most likely failure if the top is lifted too many times or if the frame is very heavy; the inserts will simply rip out. You could also tear them out simply by torquing the bolts down enough, as the leverage of threads is almost certainly stronger than the insert-to-wood joint. This can be somewhat mitigated by also using some sort of glue when installing the inserts.
  2. The metal threads in either the insert or the bolt fail, either because the material weakens, or is fatigued because of a thread-mismatch or cross-threading, or simple mechanical fatigue. Larger fasteners don't necessarily have larger threads, and most of the stress is going to be on the threads fully engaged in the insert. It is possible that these threads will let go from stress, or strip out over time if they are removed and replaced often. This is unlikely in normal use, but it is possible. There are a lot of cheaply made bolts out there that often have poor threads or use metal with poor strength. If this table was subject to a fair amount of vibration you can apply thread-locker to the bolt threads when installing them.
  • Responses in order. Pls update within answer if possible- I'm told & read RW is a tropical hardwood, is it not? | So M10 > M8 > M6 ok | Clarify please "safely move the item by gripping panel" What item & what panel? | Rip out what? Inserts from wood or Bolts from Inserts? | So proper pilot hole with good insert thread cutting is key? | Fastner = bolt or insert? | Tougher material = ?? Brass/ SS ? | Panel =? slotted what in which metal? Outer Thread of Insert across Wood grain? | How do I get read up on the last para you wrote? – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 17:53
  • 2/3 of 18mm wood gives a 12mm insert/screw insertion depth. 1/2" (for those still using old measurements) seems like it should be more than enough to hold a table top to a frame. Try to avoid dropping large, heavy object (including drunken friends) on the overhanging edge of the top and don't lift the table by the top (maybe - no indication of how heavy the frame is), and all is likely to be good. – FreeMan Oct 20 '21 at 17:54
  • @FreeMan I was told 12mm be enough so jdv scaring me :) maybe we both imagine diff things sorry jdv. Already info was so much. But To add clarify. Frame is heavy steel dual electric motorized 120kg lift capacity. Desktop will hold 2/3 monitors as before it did on ikea frame. No drunk jumping or lifting using wood top. – Alex S Oct 20 '21 at 18:02
  • I'm not sure what you read in jdv's answer that's scaring you - he suggests removing no more than 2/3 the material. That makes a 12mm deep hole for the insert in your case. Since you've got a heavy frame with the added weight of motors to raise/lower it, just make sure to lift by the frame and not by the top when you're moving it and all should be good. If you need to move long distances & it's difficult to reach the frame with the top on, simply unscrew the top & move it in two pieces... – FreeMan Oct 20 '21 at 18:14
  • True rubberwood from the rubber tree is considered a soft hardwood. It has large open pores and a well-defined grain. So inserts intended for softer material is advised. Inserts for "hardwood" would be for much denser material. The key here is that the insert is driven in like a self-tapping screw, and will easily bite into what I know of as "rubberwood". Your kilometerage will vary based on the material you have in your hands. –  Oct 20 '21 at 19:21
  • A table-top can be called a "panel". i.e. a number of smaller pieces of wood formed into a panel of some kind, and then finished such that it is a single longer and wider piece ready for use in a project. –  Oct 20 '21 at 19:24
  • Fastener: ant way of fastening similar or dissimilar materials together. In this case metal fasteners, made up of a bolt and a nut, the nut being part of a threaded insert. –  Oct 20 '21 at 19:26
  • @FreeMan - Fear alleviated. I think we both assumed opposites; him moving things using table top/ desktop, me assuming, heavy steel frames will always be the "loading/ holding/ moving" - essentially forces incident if "wood panel" was ever used for "movement" & hence the deviation into shears, forces, special fasteners - would still love to know about them & their applicability here. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:10
  • @AlexS your desire to know about "shears, forces & special fasteners" can and does fill textbooks and reference books. Not only would it be too broad for this question, it would be too broad as a stand alone question here at SE. You might get some satisfaction from reading through some of the Q&As at [physics.se], and you might be able to get good answers by asking specific and detailed questions, but don't expect a full treatise on the subject there, either. – FreeMan Oct 21 '21 at 14:32
  • @FreeMan :D I did not mean on this question in general. I meant as appreciation for the wisdom shared by jdv in this case. I did study Civil Engg/ Stress/ Strain etc as an engg FreshMan w MEs in family. PS: I was hoping if jdv & you folks can add / direct some links towards "specialized" better higher hold fasteners - that could be appliable for such Knockdown mod hacks I may need here & in future - google left me high dry. – Alex S Oct 21 '21 at 14:47
  • @jdv - Updated the Q w some self-tapping & other attributes - Could you possibly address them & maybe update your answer on which self tapping ones would best work with rubberwood & do we need a pilot hole for some or not? PS: There's no "label info here" UPDATE: Noticed a lot of variety of combinations even in threaded inserts of the hardwood type: Self tapping (advise by jdv), Slotted, 3 holes/ blind holes, collar, Hex, Reservoir, etc. (Pic from some German site) https://i.imgur.com/IYZtNj3.png – Alex S Oct 25 '21 at 18:16
  • @AlexS yes, you need a pilot hole. It has to be sized appropriately, which I'm sure you can research once you know what you have -- or ask another Q here or on DIY.SE. I don't think anyone could exhaustively discuss all possible hardware combos. The differences aren't going to be that obvious. e..g., a collar just gives your insert a nice finish rather than the raw edge of the hole it goes into. That sort of thing. An insert is, for all intents and purpose, just a fancy wood screw. Treat it like that -- pilot hole sized so the shank is snug but the teeth are proud. –  Oct 25 '21 at 18:30
  • @jdv - Very true - complexity and variety - wish there was Wiki for these :) mainly confused if self-tapping requires it to be slotted or not so? Slotted vs not Pros Cons? Top left one is self-tapping minus slot correct? PS: holes, resorvoir, seem for debris collection,hex for driving. – Alex S Oct 25 '21 at 19:04
  • Self-tapping means the insert cuts its own threads into the material once you get it started -- this is why most are slightly tapered. This is unrelated AFAIK to the mechanism for driving the insert into the wood. It has to be a large slot or hex because most non-Canadians don't have giant Roberstson screwdrivers and the driving mechanism has to allow the bolt to enter the inside threads. This is opposed to those one hammers on which use barbs to hook into the material. The barbs depend on the material swelling up behind them once driven in -- I've often wet these with glue for this reason. –  Oct 25 '21 at 19:54
  • @jdv - So the hex yes & even the slots are for driving? I thought, maybe even read the slots serve a "cutting" function for the self-tapping (assuming slot was on the wood/ downward going in side.). Kinda augmenting the threads. Or thats false? – Alex S Oct 26 '21 at 05:13
  • @jdv - These types of big slots seem to be diff from the tiny driving ones? - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32951756616.html | https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/self-tapping-threaded-inserts-cutting-slots-20374070912.html?pos=4&kwd=slotted%20type%20self%20tapping%20threaded%20inserts&tags=A||||7774.041|Price|proxy – Alex S Oct 26 '21 at 06:02
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    @AlexS I don't know what those slots are for, but they don't seem to be for driving the insert in -- they are at the narrow end of the tapered insert which goes into the pilot hole. Perhaps the bolt is expected to expand the insert when installed to force the insert against the hole when in use? Sounds like a Q for DIY.SE. –  Oct 26 '21 at 18:07
  • @AlexS just use one of the two top ones from your image in the question. If the wood table top you have is quite hard use the the hardwood insert. If it is one of the more porous and open-grained varieties, use the one for softwoods. This is where experience -- experimenting with scraps of what you have -- is more important than someone's opinion on the internet. –  Oct 26 '21 at 18:10