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All other Russian vowels come in pairs, but this pair seems a bit special. So, how does one pronounce ы and и?

jrouquie
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7 Answers7

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All vowels in Slavic languages come in three varieties: open, closed and iotized (closed following the palatal approximant j)

Russian phonetics requires that all open vowels follow non-palatalized (hard) consonants, and all closed vowels follow palatalized consonants. Openness is not a distinguishing attribute of a Russian vowel (unlike, say, English and / end). So normally all vowels in the alphabet come in pairs: open and iotized, but an iotized vowel following a hard consonant actually makes it soft and is pronounced closed instead:

a / я
о / ё
у / ю
э / е

и / ы is a notable exception: this is a closed/open pair. In Russian alphabet (unlike, say, Ukrainian), there is no separate letter for iotized и (because there is no such sound in the language), so it was required to mark the palatalization of the previous consonant.

Ж and Ц do not have soft counterparts in Russian, so цы is only written historically in some Russian words (цыпленок, цыган, цыкать) and in endings (щипцы) but pronounced цы even for words written with ци (вакцина, акция). жы is never written this way (though always pronounced exactly like this).

Ч does not have a hard counterpart, and there are no words with чы.

Ш and Щ (in common pronunciation) are hard and soft versions of the same consonant, so they are always written ши, щи

Quassnoi
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  • I'm not sure I understand, do you mean "open" and "close" as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio ? If not, where can I find more information? – jrouquie Jul 06 '12 at 11:21
  • @jrouquie: I've just calqued Russian linguistic terms: http://literary_terms.academic.ru/394/%D0%9E%D1%82%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%82%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B8 The difference is as between u/ü, a/ä etc in German. – Quassnoi Jul 06 '12 at 11:54
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    +1: Finally I understood why полиция is pronounced in that way! It is actually полицыя! – Giorgio Jul 09 '12 at 16:54
  • Can u please tell, in the pair and/end which one is open and which is closed? – Anixx Jun 21 '15 at 00:07
  • So does ы have a slight й offglide? – Ryan David Ward Dec 03 '15 at 19:03
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Ы

  • is pronunced /ɨ/ ("roses", or polish "y")
  • is used if and only if it follows a hard consonant

И

  • is pronunced /i/ ("machine") or /ɪ/ ("bin").
  • palatalize the preceding consonant
  • is not preceded by /j/ in isolation
  • is pronunced /ɨ/ when following ж, ш, ц (because /i/ would be hard to pronunce)
Community
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jrouquie
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  • Is it your answer or is it still a part of your question? – Olga Jul 05 '12 at 18:46
  • This is "what I have collected on wikipedia", so this is already some answer. If you want, you can read the question as "if this is not true, please correct me". – jrouquie Jul 05 '12 at 22:00
  • By the way, why downvote? I have seen another question which already contained an answer and was criticized for that, so I thought this would be the right way to post. Or is this answer wrong? (If so, please edit Wikipedia ;-) – jrouquie Jul 05 '12 at 22:02
  • I didn't downvote) It's just that you were asking about their status as a pair of sounds, and you gave an analysis of them, but you didn't draw a conclusion, and that was what startled me, I guess. That was why I asked. – Olga Jul 05 '12 at 22:09
  • Some notes. 1) Ы is pronounced as [ɯ] according to some sources; really the difference is too small. 2) I applaude to your treating of combinations like жи, ши, because it's more correct than usual treating their vowel as "ы" (but often it's [ɪ] instead of [ɨ]). But please note that average Russian speaker mind differs и/ы on consonant palatalization, so he (she) would say it's "ы". – Netch Nov 09 '12 at 06:54
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There is a sound file on this Wikipedia page for 'Ы'.
And here you can listen how to pronounce 'И'.

z-boss
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Ы and И are allophones, that is they specify the same phoneme. The only difference between them is in that И softens the preceding consonant while Ы does not.

Thus any detectable difference in pronunciation is due the influence of the preceding consonant which is either soft or hard.

Anixx
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  • really? And what about just shouting out loudly - "ИИИИИИИИИИИИИИ" or "ЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫЫ" - there's no preceding consonant at all. Or "ЙЫЫЫЫЫЫЫ" and "ЙИИИИИ" - do you claim that Й softens? ))))) – shabunc Jul 06 '12 at 15:21
  • What is "ЙЫЫЫЫЫЫЫ"? It is impossible to pronounce. You either get Й hard (something like Ukrainian Г) or pronounce "ЙИИИИ". Anyway if you claim И and Ы are different phonemes, demonstrate the minimal pairs. – Anixx Jul 06 '12 at 15:23
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    It is possible to pronounce though is not typical for russian. Nevertheless you are wrong, we can not simplify like that. It's NOT all about preceding consonant - there's not always such consonant. – shabunc Jul 06 '12 at 15:27
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    @shabunc It is impossible to pronounce. "there's not always such consonant" - Russian has no native words starting with "Ы". And those borrowed geographical names pronounced the same way as if they were started with "И". Again if you think they are different phonemes, give an example of a minimal pair. – Anixx Jul 06 '12 at 15:30
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    давайте я по-русски скажу, если вы русским владеете. Я знаю, что такое палатализация. Но ёлки-палки - вы что, правда не можете произнести ЫЫЫЫЫЫ - просто, безпримесно, просто ЫЫЫЫЫ - вы что, правда не чувствуете разницу по сравнению с ИИИИ? Ну нет такого слова - и что - произнести вы можете? – shabunc Jul 06 '12 at 15:33
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    And those borrowed geographical names pronounced the same way as if they were started with "И" - that's wrong. Иваново и Ываново sounds differ for any native speaker.

     – shabunc Jul 06 '12 at 15:39
  • There is no such word "Ываново" so it cannot sound differrently. As I already said There are no minimal pairs for Ы and И in Russian. This means that they specify the same phoneme. – Anixx Jul 06 '12 at 16:03
  • "Ну нет такого слова - и что - произнести вы можете?" А ёёёёёёёёёё и йооооооооо по-вашему, тоже по-разному звучит? – Anixx Jul 06 '12 at 16:05
  • Please move this discussion into the chat. – Quassnoi Jul 06 '12 at 16:13
  • @Anixx - last thing I want to quote - The six-vowel view, held by the Saint-Petersburg (Leningrad) phonology school, points to several phenomena to make its case: Native Russian speakers' ability to articulate [ɨ] in isolation (for example, in the names of respective letters, ⟨и⟩ and ⟨ы⟩) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology. As for ёёёёёё and йоооооо - it is completely separate case, nevertheless you'll be surprised, there IS difference there as well. Check out sounds that stands for french eu and eau for example. И вы так и не ответили различаете ли вы на слух Ы и И) – shabunc Jul 06 '12 at 20:31
  • @Quassnoi - мы всё ) – shabunc Jul 06 '12 at 20:31
  • @shabunc как я уже сказал, предыдущая согласная как правило, воздействует на гласную. Это относится не только к и/ы, но и к э, о, а. Тем не менее, оба варианта произношения гласной являются аллофонами и не образуют различных фонем. – Anixx Jul 07 '12 at 00:09
  • @Annix, нет вы не так сказали, вы сказали что это один и тот же звук (specify the same phoneme), и что вся разница (the only difference) в смягчении - ну что кроме ленинградской школы вами привести в качестве иллюстрации? Глаголы икАть и Ыкать? И вы всё-таки всё равно не ответили - вы на слух Ы и И отличаете? Каким образом фонема i и фонема ɨ не образуют различных фонем, ну каким? А впрочем, больше я вас убеждать не буду. Это как объяснять что есть синий цвет и зелёный - а тебе - а нет такого цвета. Вас не переубедить видимо. И тем не менее - расслабьтесь и скажите ЫЫЫЫЫ. И прислушайтесь) – shabunc Jul 07 '12 at 08:34
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    Я сказал, что это одна и та же фонема. "Глаголы икАть и Ыкать?" ЛОЛ. Как насчет глаголов ŋекать, ɦекать и ðекать? "Каким образом фонема i и фонема ɨ не образуют различных фонем, ну каким?" - Почитайте что такое фонема сначала, лол. – Anixx Jul 07 '12 at 09:05
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    вы не отвечаете на заданный вам 10 раз вопрос))) – shabunc Jul 07 '12 at 09:23
  • Я уже вам ответил, что предыдущая согласная окрашивает гласную. [ɨ] и [i] в русском языке в начале слова являются аллофонами, любое слово, начинающееся на и- можно произнести с начальным [ɨ], от этого смысл слова не изменится. – Anixx Jul 07 '12 at 09:28
  • let us continue this discussion in chat – shabunc Jul 07 '12 at 09:31
  • Anixx, Ги — одежда, Гы — неологизм, выражает разные оттенки смеха. Это раз уж вам так нужен пример. Но он не нужен. @shabunc правильно говорит и ы́кать/и́кать вполне достаточно. Ключевым является не только способность различить эти звуки, но и сопоставить записи, снова воспроизвести, и передать однозначно другому человеку это различие и устно и письменно. – yalov Apr 16 '17 at 14:39
  • Некорректным является пример gэкать и ɣэкать/ɦэкать. Тут дело и в невозможности записать средствами своего алфавита, и в проблеме передачи другому человеку. Причём в укр/бел языках этой проблемы нет и ґэкаць и гэкаць — 2 разных фонемы. (если не в бел. то в укр. точно) – yalov Apr 16 '17 at 14:39
  • @yalov невозможность записать никак не связана с фонемностью того или иного звука. – Anixx Apr 16 '17 at 18:02
  • @yalov "Ги — одежда, Гы — неологизм, выражает разные оттенки смеха." - это не пример, данные слова отличаются мягкостью согласной. – Anixx Apr 16 '17 at 18:03
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Deciding phonemes by minimal pairs is quite logical. In English for example, there are no minimal pairs between [h] and [ŋ]. Thus, they are the same phoneme. It makes no difference that any child can tell the difference, and no-one can see any the similarity between the two. Similarly, И and Ы are allophones of the same phoneme, even though all speakers of Russian are consciously aware of producing them separately.

Andrei
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  • I doubt ŋ is a phoneme in English: it seems to be an allophone of [n]. – Anixx Jan 23 '18 at 16:52
  • The argument was made by Chomsky and Halle in their English phonology - it closely follows your argument in your own answer and the comments to it that there are no minimal pairs between И and Ы (i.e. no words which differ in only this contrast). This answer could even be regarded as a duplicate, though the tone and the conclusion ("any child can hear the difference") is quite distinct. – tripleee Apr 13 '19 at 08:06
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English speakers' pronounce is closer to Ы when saying such words as vIsion, to lIve, clIck, etc., but native Russian Ы sound is more dull and wide. In fact, Russian clear pronounce of И is rarely heard in English speech, in such words as Even, lEAve, nEAt, snEAk, etc.

ivan866
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Put it crudely, tell [u] as in the word put, but make your lips as if you want to say [i:] as in the word deep. The difference between и and ы is in that ы is close central unrounded vowel, but и is close front unrounded vowel. Dorsum of tongue is raised not in the front but in the middle.

Clever Masha
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