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У меня оба часов/обеи часы/обои часы сломались.

What' s the correct way of stating the fact that both of my watches are not functioning?

brilliant
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    all is wrong. Try to say in other words: "У меня двое часов сломались" or "У меня все часы сломались" – hellboy Sep 30 '13 at 20:22

7 Answers7

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As D.Rosenthal puts it in his famous guidebook:

Разговорный характер имеют также сочетания «у обоих ворот», «у обоих часов», не отвечающие грамматической норме, так как форма косвенного падежа образована от несуществующей начальной формы (нет формы именительного падежа «оба – обе ворота», «оба – обе часы» в связи с отсутствием категории рода у существительных, употребляющихся только в форме множественного числа). Возможная правка: у тех и у других ворот (часов).

and

При слове часы (прибор) употребляется собирательное числительное (одни часы, двое часов) или добавляется слово штука (не хватает пяти штук часов). Выражение «пара часов» имеет просторечный характер.

To summarize, the best way would be to say "у меня сломались и те, и другие часы" or "у меня сломались обе штуки часов". I have never heard anyone say the latter though and I'd never say it myself. But then again I never knew someone who was in such a situation.

Myself, I'd say "у меня сломались обе пары часов", although Rosenthal deems this as low colloquial language.

UPDATE

To add more proof, here's a couple of citations from literature.

Василий Гроссман. Жизнь и судьба:

У командира первой роты две пары часов на руке.

Марк Алданов. Чертов мост:

... как он, заторопившись, посмотрит на левую пару часов (правой ведь нет) и немедленно простится с обиженным, недовольным видом.

Сергей Довлатов. Встретились и поговорили:

Какие-то сувениры, авторучки, радиоприемники, две пары часов.

Сергей Довлатов. Компромисс:

Потом разглядел две пары часов с металлическими браслетами.

Блюма Зейгарник. Патопсихология:

Так, например, при предъявлении карточки, на которой изображены три пары часов и монет, один из больных этой группы не соглашается исключить деньги...

Герман Матвеев. Зеленые цепочки:

Он вернулся в свой кабинет и, положив обе пары часов на стол, повернулся к своему помощнику, который сидел в кресле около телефона.

Do you want to tell me that in all of these cases the authors mean "four watches" and "six watches"?

Another (probably even better) alternative is the one by @Artemix: to use двое. Here's a link to a search, showing that it does show up in literature.

So, to summarize:

  • "У меня сломались обе пары часов": not really correct, but colloquially used;
  • "У меня сломались двое часов": okay, but doesn't 100% translate into "both";
  • "У меня сломались обе штуки часов": preferable, although rarely used (at least from my experience).
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Anton Zujev
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    "у меня сломались обе штуки часов" who says it like that? Downvote. If you wouldn't then how can it be the best way? – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 10:55
  • @v'-5o-1's73-, please try to read more carefully. I specifically said that I had never heard anyone say it this way, nor do I say it this way myself. I am only showing you the official way suggested by D.Rosenthal. – Anton Zujev Aug 26 '13 at 10:59
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    +1 I do not understand why this has been downvoted, although "обе штуки" does sound weird. The reference quoted here is pretty good. – Sergey Kalinichenko Aug 26 '13 at 11:38
  • @AntonZujev, you just don't make sense, if you would not use it (neither me nor dasblinkenlight) why would you say it's the best way? If it's not the best way why did you recommend it at all? – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 14:50
  • Hm... Would "у меня сломались обе пары часов" not mean that I have four watches instead of two? – brilliant Aug 26 '13 at 15:02
  • пары isn't appropriate here at all, because watches don't come in pairs – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 15:20
  • @v'-5o-1's73- Nevertheless such form is used quite a lot by authors both old (e.g. Peter the Great) and new. –  Aug 26 '13 at 18:11
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    @n.m. From what I can see in that book, it says that somebody is requesting 2 floor clocks and 2 pieces of something else. Well, it's absolutely fine to say "пара" meaning something by the quantity of 2. What is not right is to use "пара" referring to a single instance of a wristwatch. – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 18:40
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    @n.m. In the phrase "у меня сломались обе пары часов" the word "обе" multiplies "пары" by 2 which totals in 2 x 2 = 4 instances of watches. So either "обе" or "пары" has to go in order to keep the number of watches equal 2. As an example of phrase with the correct (of quantity of 2) number: "у меня сломались обои часы". The smartasses who doesn't like the word "обои" might want to consider "у меня сломались и те и другие часы". – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 19:09
  • @v'-5o-1's73- "somebody is requesting 2 floor clocks" --- one would have to review other instances of the phrase пара часов in the literature in order to come to a conclusion regarding its meaning. I have performed such a review as extensively as Google book search would allow. I posit the meaning of the phrase is not "two pieces of time measuring equipment", but rather "one piece". –  Aug 26 '13 at 19:14
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    @v'-5o-1's73-, the OP (@brilliant) had asked what is the correct way of saying that both of his watches aren't functioning. I am showing you the norm - something that is written in the main guidebook on Russian language. If you don't agree, prove your point. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 05:30
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As @fedja already answered, the word оба cannot be used here. I would use двое instead:

У меня сломалось двое часов.

Двое моих часов сломалось.

I think that it is rarely expected that one has more than one watch, so it is clear enough that no more watches left.

Словарь Ушакова states that word двое is a form of два that can be applied to living masculine objects or to the objects that do not have singular form. But it is interesting to know that this word can also mean две пары for the paired objects:

ДВО́Е, двоих, числ. колич.
1. Два (с сущ. мужск., обозначающем живые существа, и с сущ., употребляющимися только во мн.). Двое братьев. Двое суток. Двое щипцов. Нас было двое. На двое суток, по двое суток.
2. Две пары чего-нибудь (с сущ., обозначающими парные предметы; косвенные падежи могут заменяться косв. падежами от два). Двое глаз. Двое рук. Двое колес.

Artemix
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Caring about the purity of the Russian language, you can phrase it like this:

из двух часов, что у меня, ни одни (больше) не работают

Trident D'Gao
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"оба" is never used with nouns without singular form. The correct version is "у меня сломались и те, и эти часы".

fedja
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Since "часы" has no singular form, you would need to add the word "пара" (pair) to make the phrase work, in a way similar to these:

Я погладил обе пары брюк. (I ironed both pairs of trousers.)

Точильщик наточил обе пары ножниц. (The sharpener has sharpened both pairs of scissors.)

This is how I would translate your phrase:

У меня сломались обе пары часов.

This means "two watches", not four, although it does not make much sense. According to D. Rosenthal, this use is considered colloquial (see 165-3).

Also note that in the contexts where "часы" is used as a plural for "an hour", not "watches", "пара часов" means "a couple of hours", as in

Он вернулся через пару часов. (He was back in a couple of hours).

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Sergey Kalinichenko
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    Is this a modern norm? When I left Russia 20 years ago "пара часов" would mean only two watches. With scissors and trousers it is OK because they really do consist of two identical (well, symmetric actually) pieces but with watches it sounds quite outlandish to me. – fedja Aug 26 '13 at 03:57
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    Пара часов usually means a few hours. Though I have read somewhere that using пара as synonym for two is colloquial, because it can be applied to paired objects only (which is not the case for watches as well). – Artemix Aug 26 '13 at 05:30
  • @fedja I cannot tell if this norm is current, because I left roughly at the same time as you did. However, I remember that "он купил три пары часов" was an OK use for "he bought three watches" 20 years ago as well. On the other hand, my chances of hearing someone saying this were on the low side, because it was rare for someone to own more than a single watch back at the time :) – Sergey Kalinichenko Aug 26 '13 at 11:00
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    I left Russia two years ago and am still in a pretty tight contact with my friends and relatives and I would say "обе пары часов" too. ;) – Anton Zujev Aug 26 '13 at 11:13
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    "три пары часов" definitely means either "6 watches" or "6 hours" in Russian. – brilliant Aug 26 '13 at 15:05
  • @brilliant Would you mind citing any reference as to what makes you so certain as to say "definitely" about the "6 watches"? Here is a counterexample from a recent publication where "2 пары часов" means "two watches": Почему Марадона носит 2 пары часов "Как оказалось, Марадона всегда одевает пары часов, когда он путешествует - одни настроены на местное время, а другие показывают время в Аргентине." – Sergey Kalinichenko Aug 26 '13 at 15:22
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    @dasblinkenlight, haha, skuky.net is definitely an authority on Russian. A pair means 2 things of the same matter. 2 pairs means 2 times of 2 things of the same matter. So the total is 4, unless your definition of a pair is somewhat different. – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 15:30
  • @v'-5o-1's73- There's no "my definition of pair" or someone else's, it's just a way people use it -- no matter how unsophisticated they may seem to you or to me. I mean, if a native speaker used "2 пары часов" to mean "two watches" in a publication that you perceive as "low brow", he or she still used it in the meaning "two watches", not "four watches". There's no point in denying it - the proof is in the picture. – Sergey Kalinichenko Aug 26 '13 at 15:37
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    @dasblinkenlight, there are things like pants or scissors that are said to come in pairs because back in time they indeed were made of 2 separate pieces. A pair doesn't have anything to do with watches though. If you think otherwise please find me an example where a pair of watches means a single timepiece: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pair+of+watches%22&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS492US492&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=N3kbUrWhPMemygHbxYHYDQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=792#fp=1&q=%22pair+of+watches%22&tbm=isch – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 15:50
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    Things that come in pairs: https://www.google.com/search?q=things+that+come+in+pairs&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS492US492&oq=things+that+come+in+pa&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j5j0l2.4830j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 15:55
  • @dasblinkenlight - "if a native speaker used "2 пары часов" to mean "two watches" - I am a native Russian speaker and I would never say "2 пары часов" to mean "2 watches". To me, "2 пары часов" means 4 watches. – brilliant Aug 26 '13 at 16:11
  • @brilliant " I am a native Russian speaker" So am I, and I would say it to mean two, not four. My wife and my older daughter would do so as well, but I am not trying to offer that as some sort of a "proof". My point is, you cannot reasonably argue that a certain meaning is not used at all on the basis that you in particular do not use it. All it takes is a single counterexample to disprove such a claim, which I provided in my comment above. – Sergey Kalinichenko Aug 26 '13 at 16:22
  • @dasblinkenlight - "My point is, you cannot reasonably argue that a certain meaning is not used at all" - And when did I argue about that? All I did was merely stating that my meaning (that is, "2 пары часов" = "4 штуки") exists in Russian. And rest assured that all my family members use only this meaning when they say "2 пары часов". "All it takes is a single counterexample to disprove such a claim" - Having a counterexample is not enough. If I said somewhere "дай мне двE стула", you would still have to prove that it was not a mistake before claiming that "стул" in Russian is feminine. – brilliant Aug 26 '13 at 16:32
  • @brilliant "All I did was merely stating that my meaning (that is, "2 пары часов" = "4 штуки") exists in Russian." I guess I misunderstood your use of the word "definitely" in your comment above. – Sergey Kalinichenko Aug 26 '13 at 16:39
  • @dasblinkenlight - Yes, I think you did. If I said "My mom is definitely my parent" that wouldn't at all mean that my dad was not my parent. – brilliant Aug 26 '13 at 16:47
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    @brilliant what kind of proof do you need? If you look at my answer above, I am citing Rosenthal's guidebook. I think you can't get more official than that. He claims that "пара часов" meaning "a watch" is acceptable, although considered low colloquial. I still don't understand why we're arguing over that matter. And yes, I am a native speaker too. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 05:26
  • @AntonZujev - "what kind of proof do you need?" - I don't need any proof for anything. It's just that dasblinkenlight said that in order to disprove a claim that some word or group of words don't have other possible meanings one just needs to find a single counterexample. So, I pointed out to him that finding merely a single counterexample is not enough for a proof as that one single counterexample may be merely a mistake. If I have accidentally blurted out somewhere something like "двА лампы", that would merely be me twisting Russian grammar rather than a proof that "лампа" is masculine. – brilliant Aug 27 '13 at 11:09
  • @brilliant look at my examples from literature in the other answer then. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 11:13
  • @AntonZujev - "I still don't understand why we're arguing over that matter" - I am not arguing about anything. I only stated that "2 пары часов" definitely has the meaning of "4 watches" in Russian, and I didn't say that other meanings are not possible. As for me and all my friends, we always use it meaning "4 hours" - regardless of how other Russians might use it. "And yes, I am a native speaker too" - Good for you, can go and get drunk now. – brilliant Aug 27 '13 at 11:16
  • @brilliant well, everybody was pointing out that they are native speakers, so I did too, don't take it that hard. :) I find it strange to resort to using "две пары часов" to say "four watches" when one can just say "четыре штуки/пары часов". As for you and your friends, you can of course continue using it that way, although I'd just say "четыре часа" in that case. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 11:28
  • @AntonZujev - "although I'd just say "четыре часа" in that case" - I wasn't talking about hours, but watches. I personally find it more natural to say "две пары часов" (meaning 4 watches) rather than "4 штуки часов". As for hours, I would, of course, always prefer saying "4 часа" to "две пары часов". – brilliant Aug 27 '13 at 11:43
  • @brilliant oh, okay, sorry - you just wrote "4 hours" and I didn't suspect a mistake. Anyway, I think we both made ourselves clear to each other now. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 11:46
  • @AntonZujev - Sure. My fault. I admit it. – brilliant Aug 27 '13 at 11:49
  • @ Everyone: Comments are not meant for discussions, please use our chat room for this. – Alenanno Aug 27 '13 at 12:10
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У меня обе пары часов сломались.

Anixx
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  • This answer doesn't provide any new information not already present in previous answers; not does it provide any additional context. – Aleks G Aug 26 '13 at 21:51
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What I would say and expect to hear from somebody is "обои часы". Not sure about how canonically right it is.

UPDATE:

For the people who don't know Russian well enough and claim there is no such word as "обои" in the meaning of "both".

Местами говорят обои м. новг. смол. и обое ср. о вещах: платье двое, да обое худое. Два брата хвалились, да оба никуда не годились. Обое рябое, зап. все равно. Оба лучше, шуточное. Обои брата, новг. обои брата, смол. обои браты, вор.

Толковый словарь Даля

Trident D'Gao
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    I would only use "обои часы" when searching for a wallpaper with clocks to use on my desktop. This is outrageously incorrect, as there is no such word as "обои" that'd mean "both". – Anton Zujev Aug 26 '13 at 11:11
  • @AntonZujev, this is what people say, I don't care what you or your Rozenthal think about it. – Trident D'Gao Aug 26 '13 at 14:24
  • I don't know what people you talk to then, @v'-5o-1's73-, because that is really wrong, it's not even colloquial. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 05:19
  • @AntonZujev, you are outrageously ignorant saying there is no such word, check out the upadate – Trident D'Gao Aug 27 '13 at 16:39
  • well sure, if you're from Novgorod or Smolensk you can say that. But that's a local thing and a person from St.Petersburg, for example, would just think you're uneducated. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 18:26
  • @AntonZujev, again, I don't care what anybody would think. Do you? My point is that I've heard it being said like that many times and I am not from Novgorod. – Trident D'Gao Aug 27 '13 at 19:23
  • I care about speaking correctly. My point is that what you are suggesting is only correct in Novgorod. I don't know about you, but I think the OP wanted to know the correct way of saying the phrase, not the one one of the answerers heard being said. Anyway, this is slowly but surely falling into off topic. If you wish to continue the debate, feel free to ping me in the chat. – Anton Zujev Aug 27 '13 at 19:29
  • Did I ever say this way is correct? No. Did I say I there is a chance it is incorrect? Yes I did. All I said is that people say it this way. Now, there is the academic Russian and there is the live Russian, the only difference is that academic one has a book written by Rosenthal and the other one doesn't have any. The book is what a few people agreed on what Russian is. The live Russian is what people in Russia speak without knowing anything about that book and regardless of what's there. Languages evolve. Books get outdated. Being uneducated isn't a crime nor it is something to be ashamed of. – Trident D'Gao Aug 27 '13 at 19:45
  • http://wagnerundkoch.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-post.html – StasM Sep 15 '13 at 19:56