3

Which way is correct here?

... пользователь услуг почтовой связи

or

... пользователь услугами почтовой связи

Aleks G
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brilliant
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4 Answers4

3

Only the first one is correct, the word пользователь is used with noun in genitive case, so it governed by "пользователь чего", though the verb itself is used with instrumental case (кем/чем), I believe this is the root of your suspicions.

The same is true, by the way, for verbs like повелевать, руководить: повелевать [чем?] царством, but повелитель [чего?] бурь, руководить [кем?] людьми, but руководитель [чего?] стройки.

shabunc
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  • Is there any official rule for this? What about "торговец яблокАМИ", "сеанс управления автомобилЕМ"? – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 17:39
  • @brilliant, I'm afraid even if such rules exists (which I strongly doubt) it is actually a list of verbs one should remember. – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 17:40
  • "it is actually a list of verbs one should remember" - Verbs?! Why not nouns? – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 17:42
  • @because it is all about verb usage, see, no matter what noun it is used with пользователь - it is always in genitive case. – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 17:43
  • "it is all about verb usage, see, no matter what noun it is used with пользователь - it is always in genitive case" - So why do you say then that "it is a list of verbs one should remember"? I mean even if I remember that the verb "пользоваться" demands a noun in instrumental case right after it ("пользоваться компьютерОМ"), it will still help me zero in determining that the correct case for a noun following the word "пользователь" is genitive ("пользователь компьютерА"). So, I guess, I need to remember a list of nouns instead ("пользователь","повелитель","руководитель", etc.), not? – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 17:52
  • @brilliant, oh, I see what is the point to your confusion, I've meant the verb and, of course the noun which is derived from that verb, since, once again, the very essence of this question is about exactly such nouns ) – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 17:55
  • I see. Still what about "торговец яблокАМИ"? Would it also be correct to say "торговец яблок"? And in case with "управлять - управление", I think it's not only about remembering the verb-noun pair, but about knowing something else: "автоматическое управление автомобИЛЯ", but "сеанс управления автомобилЕМ". – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 18:04
  • @brilliant, nope, you are absolutely right, it is exactly торговец яблоками and управление автомобилем, all I'm trying to say that I cannot recall any rule which will help you to remember which of such nouns is used with which case exactly. – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 18:08
  • I learned from here http://russian.stackexchange.com/questions/2108/%D0%9D%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%81%D1%8F-%D1%81-%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BC-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%BC-%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0 that both "управление автомобилЕМ" and "управление автомобилЯ" are possible depending on what you mean by the word "управление". – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 18:13
  • @brilliant, in the example you've provided only автомобилем is possible. – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 18:15
  • I provided two examples: "автоматическое управление автомобИЛЯ", but "сеанс управления автомобилЕМ" (by "автоматическое управление" I mean a part of the car, like "рулевое управление" or "встроенное управление") – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 18:22
  • well, @brilliant, as you've already mentioned, there is a seprate question about управление автомобиля/автомобилем. What I've tried to do: 1. Answer the question you've actually asked. 2. Confess that I hardly can name any rules other but brute memorisation. 3. Agreed that indeed тороговец яблоками and сеанс управления автомобилем. Sorry, I just don't know what else I can add here ))) – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 18:27
  • "Sorry, I just don't know what else I can add here )))" - I would want to have some official source that states that "пользователь услугАМИ" is incorrect and explains why it is incorrect while "торговец яблоками" is okay. – brilliant Apr 14 '13 at 18:31
  • @brilliant, once again, I don't know such source, I just know that first form is correct and second - not, that is exactly what this question is about. For example, there are some remnant of locative case in Russian (в снегу), the only rule one can provide for using locative it to enlist all cases when it can be used. The same is here. I believe that in best case you'll find some list of nouns. As for me, I don't know such list. – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 18:37
1

Nouns ending in -тель always require an object in Genitive.

гонитель свободы

ценитель искусства

родитель девочек

растлитель малолетних

водитель машины

первооткрыватель Антарктики

руководитель предприятия

носитель информации

любитель сладостей

строитель социализма

учитель географии

исследователь Арктики

издатель газеты

приятель мужа

деятель Сопротивления

правитель Азии

победитель дракона

Community
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Anixx
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0

At the risk of having stones thrown at me, I'll say that both phrases are grammatically correct, however one of them may be used more often than the other. Here are a few links to the by-laws of using Russian Postal Server - on the Russian Postal Service's website:

http://www.russianpost.ru/rp/servise/ru/home/documents/postlaw/postlaw2

Статья 16. Услуги почтовой связи
...
Пользователь услуг почтовой связи обязан оплатить оказанные ему услуги.

And here's a link to another section in the same by-laws:

http://www.russianpost.ru/rp/servise/ru/home/documents/postrules/postrules7

Глава 7
Ответственность операторов почтовой связи и пользователей услугами почтовой связи

Emphases are mine in both quotes.

Trailing this same document, it's evident that the second version (instrumental case) is used more often than the first one (genitive).

While Russian Postal Service is not the authority on Russian Language, I'd like to believe that such important documents as the by-laws and terms and conditions have been properly proof-read by somebody that knows a thing or two about the grammar.

Aleks G
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-1

There is a general rule one can apply to choosing a correct case - inductive reasoning.

пользователь связи (user) is a doer - always use genitive case for "doer of something" @shabunc correctly pointed out that "пользователь услугами" is grammatically incorrect, as well as "торговец яблокАМИ".

управлениe автомобилем (operating) is a noun (gerund) derived from a verb "to operate", so all rules that apply to the verb "to operate" will apply to the derived noun "operating". The verb "operate" hints you that you need some "instrument" to operate - in this case a car, therefore "instrumental case". The instrumental case indicates that a noun is the instrument with which the subject performs an action.

user1602
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    "торговец яблоками" is correct and de-facto is quite often used form, it is "продавец яблоками" that can be presented as incorrect form. – shabunc Apr 14 '13 at 20:15
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    "торговец яблоками" is correct – Anixx Apr 15 '13 at 07:23