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The game of the little piglet is a typical French game for 3 players. The first player takes the ball and throws it. The second player takes the throw and balls it. What does the third player do?

There's nothing wrong with my translation, even if the phrasing seems weird. It is a deductive reasoning game, not a guessing game. There is one and only one correct answer.

Hint:

The answer is the only fact about the third player that can be deduced from the question.

WARNING : What is below reveals the answer

First Order Logic

Proof that the solution :

  • exists
  • is unique
  • can be found by deduction

First order logic is very flexible, here let's just turn the actions into functions while the people and the objects become variables or constants. The question becomes :

playsPiglet(X, Y, Z)

takes(ball, X)

throws(ball, X)

takes(throw, Y)

balls(throw, Y)

Z only appears on one line so you can't work the equations any further. The only fact you know about Z is that he plays the game of the little piglet.

(There's no credit to be given, someone asked me that riddle long ago. It took me a long time to find the correct answer).

F1Krazy
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Alain Reve
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    Are you sure this is [logical-deduction] and not [lateral-thinking]? – justhalf Aug 22 '22 at 03:59
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    Note that if the answer is somewhere along the lines of rot13(Gur guveq cynlre vf nafjrevat guvf dhrfgvba) then it's lateral thinking, not logical deduction. – justhalf Aug 22 '22 at 04:58
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    There is one and only one correct answer. Sorry, but it seems that with your question alone, there are seven different possible answers, all of which can be correct. – new Q Open Wid Aug 22 '22 at 13:51
  • Please, a link explaining how to read "rot13(Gur guveq cynlre vf nafjrevat guvf dhrfgvba)" – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 10:11
  • I'm editing my post to reply to other comments – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 10:13
  • @FlorianF Please, Florian, don't call me a liar. I'm not a liar and I feel offended when people accuse me of being one. – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 10:34
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    @AlainReve Go to https://rot13.com/ and paste the text inside the brackets into the box at the top. The box at the bottom will show the original text. We can't use spoiler tags inside comments, so encrypting it with rot13 is the best we can do. – F1Krazy Aug 23 '22 at 11:01
  • As for your edit, I'm afraid that just insisting that the question can be solved via logical deduction isn't good enough at this point. We've tried logical deduction and it's clearly not working. We need something else to go on - a hint, or some addition to the puzzle that narrows down the possibilities of what it could be - because at the moment, there simply isn't enough information for us to actually make the logical deduction that you insist is there. – F1Krazy Aug 23 '22 at 11:15
  • Thank you for the cypher link. The encrypted answer is funny, @justhalf deserves points for imagination. Unfortunately, in this case, imagination is not required. – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 11:19
  • @F1Krazy I'm afraid giving that kind of hint would make the solution too easy to find. I'll try rot13(Gur nafjre vf gur bayl snpg nobhg gur guveq cynlre gung pna or qrqhprq sebz gur dhrfgvba.) – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 11:28
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    Can you edit that hint into the question, with a spoiler tag instead of rot13? Hopefully it's enough to get the question reopened. – F1Krazy Aug 23 '22 at 11:30
  • I don't have enough points to use spoiler tags. Please do it for me. – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 11:31
  • And... Do you mean you found the answer? – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 11:32
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    No, but that hint might be enough for someone else to find the answer. Only one way to find out. – F1Krazy Aug 23 '22 at 11:33
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    If a puzzle is too broad without hints, consensus is to close it. Information necessary for others to rule out wrong answers should be visible by default – bobble Aug 23 '22 at 13:44
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    There are very similar questions in French forums, https://www.jeuxvideo.com/forums/1-6244-9110995-1-0-1-0-0.htm and https://forum.reseau-js.com/topic/6724-riponpon/#comments that go on for 7 pages to conclude with the "answer": "you are all morons to look for an answer that does not exist". Maybe you came up with an answer, but it is like "guess what I think". – Florian F Aug 23 '22 at 15:10
  • Is the answer rot13(Gur guveq cynlre cynlf gur tnzr bs gur yvggyr cvtyrg)? – pregunton Aug 23 '22 at 17:15
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    If you actually had a serious answer in mind, then I suggest you just present it openly at this point. Then we can help you improve the question so that it does a better job of hinting at that answer and ruling out others. – Ed Murphy Aug 24 '22 at 06:37
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    As it stands the answer could simply be "the third player plays the game", as that is absolutely a fact that can be deduced from the question. I think you need to give a hint as to the direction the answer should take (do we need to look at the meaning of words, is this about a specific game, ...) If it's about a specific game, you could also add a "knowledge"-tag, since the puzzle requires specific knowledge. – xyldke Aug 24 '22 at 06:49
  • @xyldke HURRAY! You got it! Yes, it's the one and only thing we can deduce from the question and which concerns the third player. – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 08:24
  • @pregunton Sorry, you found it first in fact. I just answered xyldke before decripting your post. – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 08:29
  • It's alright :) Given the hint, I figured that some almost-tautologous statement like that had to be the answer. – pregunton Aug 24 '22 at 08:37
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    @pregunton and you were right :). Now I hope this question will be re-opened so you can post the solution as an answer and get credits for it. – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 08:52
  • @FlorianF No hard feelings and thank you for the links. They really made my day (because I'm also French). Here most of the French comments would be considered off-topic or impolite. The moment the word "ball" appears in a French forum you will get jokes about men's genitals. – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 09:36
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    This is very much an xkcd 169 situation. The "puzzle" is all set up to suggest inductive reasoning or lateral thinking, and then the intended answer does a rug pull to say, no we must use deductive reasoning only and there isn't even anything to deduce beyond the definition of the word player. This is not a puzzle, it is a prank. – Jaap Scherphuis Aug 24 '22 at 09:52
  • @JaapScherphuis I edited my question according to your comment. Do you think it is better like that? Doesn't it make the solution too easy to find? – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 10:02
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    @AlainReve Even if it is presented as a deduction puzzle, the fact that there is nothing to deduce and that the intended answer is simply something that is true by definition, still puts it in prank/gotcha territory in my view. – Jaap Scherphuis Aug 24 '22 at 10:13
  • @JaapScherphuis I see what you mean. Maybe instead of just saying it is a reasoning game I should try to rephrase it a bit like this one: https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/117539/reasoning-exercise-coloured-hexagons-and-lines "Which rules determine the amount, position and color of the hexagons?" implies the possibility that there is redundant information. (And I think there is). Any suggestion? – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 10:36
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    @AlainReve The problem is not that there is redundant information. The problem is that there is no relevant information. There is nothing to solve, nothing to deduce, there is nothing to do but regurgutate the trivially obvious. – Jaap Scherphuis Aug 24 '22 at 11:10
  • @JaapScherphuis Yes, and this is what makes it difficult :). Keep your thoughts under control, keep your imagination away from it and JUST LOOK AT WHAT IS REALLY THERE. For years I had no solution. When I learned about first order logic I tried to apply it to this puzzle and for a few moments I couldn't believe what I saw. Then I called the person who had asked me that question and he said "told you it was easy!". – Alain Reve Aug 24 '22 at 12:57
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    Being difficult doesn't make it a good puzzle. What's difficult isn't even realizing that "the third player plays the game" is true; it's realizing that, despite how obvious and boring that is, it is nevertheless the intended answer. Contrast (for instance): "Three men agree to take turns shooting at each other, in this order: Alan hits his target 1/3 of the time, Bob hits his target 2/3 of the time, Charlie hits his target every time. Who should Alan shoot at on his first turn?" Now that takes some actual cleverness (if you don't already know the answer from hearing it before). – Ed Murphy Aug 25 '22 at 05:22
  • If A shoots at B and kills him, it's C's turn so A is dead. If A shoots at C and kills him, it's B turn and he's going to shoot at A. In this case A has 1/3 chances of being alive for the next round.

    If A misses (whoever he was aiming at), it's B's turn. A can try to guess what B would do then, but he cannot be sure. B may think "if C is still alive after I shoot, he's going to kill either A or me, and the one he leaves alive is going to shoot at him. He will choose to shoot me because I'm the greatest danger to him". (That is, assuming they each know the other's capacities).

     – Alain Reve Aug 25 '22 at 09:44
  • I think the twist here is that we cannot assume they all want to survive. A knows he is a poor shot, even if he doesn't know the capacities of the 2 others. Yet he agrees to take part in a game which will most likely end up with 2 of them dead (there's a very small chance that C will be killed and that A and B will keep on taking turns shooting at each other and missing until they decide to give up). I think all 3 are suicidal but don't want to shoot themselves (maybe they think this would lead them to hell). I think A would shoot at B in an attempt to get it over as quickly as possible. – Alain Reve Aug 25 '22 at 09:58
  • I give up on my question. It's been solved and I'm not spending any more time arguing about it. – Alain Reve Aug 25 '22 at 10:18
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    Please don't edit your question into a completely different question after it's already received answers. Even if you're not satisfied with those answers - which is understandable in this case, as they're all wrong - it's still a disservice to the users, myself included, who went to the effort of coming up with those answers in the first place. If you want to post Ed Murphy's riddle, please do it as a separate question. – F1Krazy Aug 25 '22 at 10:25
  • @F1Krazy Thank you, but it wasn't a mistake. You can't get this question re-opened, I can't get this question re-opened, let's just give up. The majority of people don't like it, even if we think they're wrong let's just accept the fact and move on. Ed Murphy's question is also a nice one (even though it's speculative because you have to think about the motivation of the 3 players - but as the question is already closed, who cares?) – Alain Reve Aug 25 '22 at 10:41
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    I didn't say it was a mistake. I said it's against the rules of the site and you shouldn't do it. If you want to abandon this question, that's fine, but actually abandon it. No further edits, no further comments. Just walk away. – F1Krazy Aug 25 '22 at 10:46
  • @F1Krazy Well, I can't abandon it because people can still vote on it, even though it's closed, and as it stands it's going to keep on loosing me points. I'll try to think of something. Not now, though, I don't have time. I know you spent time on that question, trying to find an answer and trying to get it re-opened. I'm really grateful. – Alain Reve Aug 25 '22 at 10:56
  • Also, don't actually post that duel puzzle as it has been asked and answered before so any repost would just be closed as a duplicate. – Jaap Scherphuis Aug 25 '22 at 11:50

7 Answers7

5

Does the third player

throw the jack?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9tanque

Ed Murphy
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I assume you're describing

the game also known as "Piggy in the Middle", or simply "Keep Away".

In that case, the third player would

attempt to intercept the ball while the other two players throw it back and forth between one another.

F1Krazy
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    Sorry for the trouble. As for your answer, it's not the game you are talking about, and not the right answer. I hope you will try again. – Alain Reve Aug 21 '22 at 15:52
2

Does the third player

takes the ball and throws it

Just looking at what changes between 1 and 2 is that ball->throw and throws->balls. Applying the same logic again makes the 3rd player do the same as the 1st player.

Ivo
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  • Nice try, but the real answer has to be deduced from the indications given and it's not said it's a serial of some kind. – Alain Reve Aug 22 '22 at 13:48
1

Does the third player

catch the ball?

user81071
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1

The third player throws the ball and takes it.

justhalf
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  • Still no solution given, keep it up :). BTW, it is a logical deduction problem and the solution, once found, seems obvious. – Alain Reve Aug 22 '22 at 10:16
  • Hint : Use Occam's razor – Alain Reve Aug 22 '22 at 18:27
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    So far your hints are compatible with most, if not all, existing answers. A good puzzle not only needs to have a good answer that matches, but also a good reason why other answers do not match. Currently you don't have a good reason on why some answers are not a match :) Welcome to SE, hope you can make better questions in the future. – justhalf Aug 23 '22 at 07:38
  • Mostly, I would say some answers do not match because they're guesses. – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 11:54
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    @AlainReve you need to be able to explain why certain answers are incorrect (by referring to parts of the question that shows the incompatibility). – justhalf Aug 23 '22 at 15:11
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Since you mentioned translation, not sure if throw could've meant a blanket in the original language.

If so, perhaps the 3rd player catches the ball (made from a throw by the 2nd player) from the 1st player and un-balls it back into a throw and gives it to the 2nd player.

Haoyang Feng
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  • No, the original language is French. The term is also ambiguous in French, but in french a "throw" would mean a javelin. – Alain Reve Aug 22 '22 at 13:52
  • @AlainReve in order to get the answer via reasoning, is it important to consider it was in French? Or is that irrelevant? – Haoyang Feng Aug 23 '22 at 00:11
  • It's irrelevant. But I was asked whether throw also meant a blanket in the original language. – Alain Reve Aug 23 '22 at 10:07
1

The third player throws the take and balls it.

BeefyMcSack
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