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I would like to start with a profound acknowledgment of the tragic loss of life in the October 7th incident, and my deepest respects go to all those who have been affected. I have no intention of diminishing the significance of this event or the suffering it has caused.

In reviewing the available reports, including the detailed coverage by Haaretz, I noticed an interesting statistic: among the 1,100 identified victims, 360 were soldiers or police officers. This implies a civilian casualty rate of approximately 68%. This figure struck me because it is somewhat similar to the civilian casualty rate during the 2014 Operation Protective Edge, as reported by the UNHRC, where about 65% of the 2,251 victims were civilians.

Given these numbers, I'm trying to understand the criteria and context used in classifying such tragic incidents. I'm particularly interested in how different factors, such as the proportion of civilian casualties, influence the perception and categorization of these events. Could you provide some insight into how these determinations are typically made and the complexities involved in such assessments?

Veegas
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    Voting not to close as this is a good question and can be factually answered - "collateral damage" during conflicts is a well-studied field. (It really feels weird, and callous, to call the death of innocents as collateral damage, even if it is the riht technical term used in this field). But please update your answer with a link to the UNHRC report on 2014 Operation Protective Edge you have cited. – sfxedit Nov 10 '23 at 13:55
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    Just because they target military/police doesn’t mean it can’t be a terrorist attack. – Joe W Nov 15 '23 at 14:03

4 Answers4

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Targeting civilians vs civilian casualties

Putting aside numbers for a bit, the context here is clear. The 7th October massacre specifically targeted civilians for gruesome torture, murder, and kidnapping:

According to documents recovered from the bodies of killed militants, militants were instructed to attack civilian populations, including elementary schools and a youth center, to "kill as many people as possible", and to take hostages for use in future negotiations.

We have video evidence of this:

Other videos show attackers shooting at children, executing men in civilian clothing, throwing grenades into civilian shelters, and decapitations.

That's also the reason given in a joint statement why the US, France, Germany, Italy, and the UK consider it a terrorist attack:

In recent days, the world has watched in horror as Hamas terrorists massacred families in their homes, slaughtered over 200 young people enjoying a music festival, and kidnapped elderly women, children, and entire families, who are now being held as hostages.

Specifically targeting civilians. That's a terror attack.


Operation Protective Edge was a military operation to stop rockets being fired at civilian infrastructure. It included air strikes targeting military infrastructure as well as a ground invasion. It did not purposefully target civilians.

Targeting military infrastructure while accepting civilian casualties. That's a military operation.

The numbers

Now, looking at the numbers:

At least 1,400 Israelis were killed, including 1,033 civilians,[13] 275 soldiers[14] and 58 police officers.[8]

Police officers are generally considered civilian casualties unless they take part in military actions.

That gives us a civilian death rate of 73% for the Hamas terrorist attack (the civilians were the target, the soldiers were just accidental casualties).

For Operation Protective Edge we have calculations ranging from 65% civilians (from the anti-Israel UN HRC, based partially on numbers from the Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health in Gaza) to 36% (from Israel).


Civilian deaths vary widely between different wars. Some claim rates as high as 74% starting in the 80s, up to 90% in the 90s. Others claim averages of 50%.

For different wars, see eg Estimating the Number of Civilian Casualties in Modern Armed Conflicts–A Systematic Review. The Korean War eg has 74%, Vietnam 46%, the first Persian Gulf War 87%, the Yugoslavian wars 52-56%.

In a war where one party specifically hides its military operations under civilian infrastructure to use it as human shields, a higher than average civilian death rate can be expected.

tim
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    Agreed. While there are many different definitions of terrorism, I would would argue that an operation whose main goal is to, quite literally, terrorize would be included by any of them … and if isn't, I would argue that definition is wrong. – Jörg W Mittag Nov 09 '23 at 15:43
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    The documents published in the [sources of the wiki] (https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-may-have-planned-israel-attack-for-more-than-a-year-documents-shared-with-sky-news-suggest-12984107) while it mentions taking civilians hostages, there's no mention of killing civilians as well as [statement from Hamas] https://news.sky.com/story/civilian-hostages-will-be-freed-if-israel-reduces-gaza-bombing-senior-hamas-leader-says-12991188 official is the same as he claims. So the question of aim is not proven for one or the other since both sides could claim we didn't target. – Veegas Nov 09 '23 at 16:58
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    As for statements by US, UK, France and Germany. Also doesn't mean anything on the ground to me. These countries have their fair share of atrocities against "terrorists" that they deny and continue to deny and don't provide any substantial evidence for their claims, they simply follow their agenda. – Veegas Nov 09 '23 at 17:02
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    @Veegas respectfully, look at the circumstances of the 260 SuperNova victims. That's definitely killing civilians and the testimonials came too quickly and were too widespread to have been improvised on the spot by Israel, not when Hamas initiated 10/7. Denying civilian killings took place makes one wonder at the good faith of your question. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 09 '23 at 17:14
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    @Veegas If despite extensive evidence you want to deny what happened on 7.10, I don't think anything I write would convince you. And frankly, I have no interest in any further discussion (feel free to look up the videos and photos yourself). – tim Nov 09 '23 at 17:14
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    I'm not denying it, I'm definitely acknowledging it happened and it's horrible as I mentioned. I've done enough research by looking up videos and pictures. My point is it's very easy to fall for the propaganda of the powerful here. For me I'm talking about finding a just political and moral standard, 260 people were killed in the festival. As well as thousands of people now killed in a similar fashion with similar testimonies and videos the same in 2014. So it's not to discredit that there were civilians murdered, but here we're talking about Objective/Intent which is much harder to prove – Veegas Nov 09 '23 at 17:38
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    @Veegas When you put a pistol to a childs head and pull the trigger, that's intent. When you have attack plans targeting schools and orders to "kill as many people as possible", that's intent. When you attack a festival and murder as many civilians as you can, that's intent. When you hack of arms & heads of civilians, that's intent. That's not a military operation gone wrong, that's not collateral damage. I mean, seriously. How is that even up for debate? – tim Nov 09 '23 at 17:51
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica: indeed. It reminds of another, recent Q here: Answers to which contain quotes from Hamas explaining their rather broad definition of non-civilian, quite diverging from international norms. (Although RogerV might say those are just 'Western' norms, and the Middle East has "nuanced" views on that LOL). – the gods from engineering Nov 09 '23 at 20:46
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    Agreed with the first part of your post: the 7/10 attack was a terrorist action. But 'Israel doesn't deliberate hits civilians' is a blatant lie. Even the wikipedia link provided acknowledges that jewish organizations such as 'Breaking the silence' registered hundreds of declarations of soldiers who said that they shoot to everyone they found, and every dead was reported as a 'terrorist' later. Killing more civilians in 15 days than Russia in 2 years is hard. UN HRC is not more anti-Israel than an antinazi group is anti-Germany, and police forces from an invader country are military targets. – Rekesoft Nov 10 '23 at 09:41
  • "the soldiers were just accidental casualties" - not accurate. The soldiers were targeted so they are busy defending themselves, and won't be able to defend the civilians. – Tsahi Asher Nov 10 '23 at 15:27
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    This answer could use some substantiation for the claim that the UNHRC is anti-Israel. There are member states that are, undoubtedly, but that is insufficient. – TAR86 Nov 10 '23 at 17:50
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    @TAR86 Here's a start. "The structural bias against Israel – including a standing agenda item for Israel, whereas all other countries are treated under a common item – is wrong." – tim Nov 10 '23 at 18:07
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    Looking at this graph of unhrc resolutions, there are really only two conclusions 1) Israel is worse in regards to human rights than syria, myammar, belarus, and north korea combined. Or 2) There is an anti-Israel bias. I think it's pretty obvious that it is not 1). – tim Nov 10 '23 at 18:07
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    You might want to add that the victim statistics for Gaza is extremely... unprovable. They are claims by a Geneva-convention-violating terrorist organization that (1) has zero transparency/accountability/independent verification of their claims; (2) deliberately dresses their fighters in civilian clothes so they can be counted as civilian casualties; (3) deliberately stages "victim" media that are provably acting. – user4012 Nov 10 '23 at 21:11
  • @user4012 definitely, the numbers for the current conflict by Hamas are questionable at best. I'm not using Hamas numbers in my answers at all (and wouldn't). My answer just gives the Israeli numbers & UNHRC (which are also not unbiased) for a past conflict (the 2014 gaza war). If you have info that those are based on Hamas numbers, please let me know & I'll add it to my answer. – tim Nov 10 '23 at 21:18
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    Are UNHRC numbers based on some magical research and not simply on Hamas numbers? Given what everyone knows about UNHRC, I'm extremely skeptical of the former – user4012 Nov 10 '23 at 21:36
  • @user4012 I was too, which is why I added the anti-Israel disclaimer. I've added a primary source for their numbers & another disclaimer. From the doc: "Information from the Ministry of Health in Gaza is one, but not an exclusive, source of information. Verification of the information collected is continuing." – tim Nov 11 '23 at 07:04
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    Their methodology doesn't solely rely on them, but that they are considered at all is disqualifying to me. They describe their process in more detail, eg: "The methodology used involves the compilation of initial reports of fatalities from the media and other sources which are then crosschecked and verified in collaboration with a number of international, Palestinian and Israeli partner organizations." – tim Nov 11 '23 at 07:05
  • "Specifically targeting civilians. That's a terror attack." If this claim not personal opinion you should source it. – Stand with Gaza Jan 26 '24 at 11:18
  • @StandwithGaza Do I really have to link the definition of terrorism? It's clear that going to a music festival to murder as many civilians as possible in brutal ways to archive a political goal is terrorism. I don't have a basis for discussion with anyone who disagrees on that. – tim Jan 26 '24 at 14:47
  • Yes, you should, as that would improve your answer. There are many competing definitions of terrorism so you should clearly specify which one you rely on. – Stand with Gaza Jan 26 '24 at 15:00
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While there are some specialized definitions of the word "terrorism," Wikipedia gives the most commonly used uses of the word:

Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel).

Implicit in that explanation is intent.

There has to be an intent to create a fear of violence as a way to achieve desired political outcomes.

What is not a part of the definition is the ratio of civilian to military casualties.

The consideration of the ratio of civilian to military casualties can be evaluated when ascertaining whether a war crime has occurred. But not every war crime is terrorism, nor is all terrorism a war crime. Although there is often a large overlap between the two.

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    Best answer. OP's premise is essentially wrong. One could make comparisons with Bataclan etc. to satisfy numerical curiosity, but that's not why this is called a terrorist attack. OTOH the size of the response is** based on that. France decided to invoke the EU common defense treaty provision, and there was a lotta bombing of ISIS after that until ISIS held no ground. Likewise Israel declared war on Hamas with the stated endpoint of destroying Hamas entirely. – the gods from engineering Nov 09 '23 at 20:36
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    This. If there was an equivalence to made to Israeli terrorism, not - alleged - IDF war crimes in Gaza, it would more on what happening in some of the West Bank killings by settlers right now: In Qusra, a village south-east of the city of Nablus, four Palestinians were killed by settlers on October 11th. The next day, during a funeral procession for them, two more were shot dead by settlers ... One Israeli* officer branded the settler attacks “nationalist terrorism”.* – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 09 '23 at 22:03
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Numbers are not what determine terrorism.

@tim has already answered about the intent or target of the attack as more important.

In addition, note that Israel counts even off-duty military personnel as military casualties, not as civilians. So any IDF member, even in civilian clothing and without weapons attending, say, the music festival in their spare time and massacred there would be counted as a military casualty, not a civilian one.

While we do know that some soldiers and police were killed in action, as far as I know Israel has not released any numbers about how many of the "military" deaths were actually armed and on duty and how many would have been counted as civilian deaths by others.

I'm trying to understand the criteria and context used in classifying such tragic incidents.

Typically by intent and context. The 9/11 attacks are terrorism, even though in a different context an attack on the Pentagon would've been classified as a military attack or sabotage. But in the context of causing fear, largely civilian targets, and methods of undercover operatives using hijacking instead of soldiers in uniform conducting a military operation, it is generally considered a terrorism attack because that is what most of the individual elements fit to.

In yet a different context, a plane hitting a skyscraper would be considered an accident, even if the event resulted in the same number of deaths and those deaths were civilians.

Meanwhile, the piracy at the Somalia and other coasts is not classified as terrorism, even though it carries similarities - conducted by non-military groups in civilian clothing, targetting civilian ships, etc. - because we have a different category - piracy - that is more narrow and more fitting.

Coming back to Oct 7th, the closest category for this attack is terrorism. It could also be called a pogrom, but that term has largely fallen out of use.

Tom
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Question:

How is the October 7th attack classified as terrorism based on casualty statistics, and how does it compare to similar events?

Short Answer:

There is no consensus on the definition of terrorism.

Within the United Nations system, in the absence of a universally agreed definition of the term, various terminology describing the notion of "terrorism" can be found within its outputs. These are not generally intended to suggest the existence of an agreed definition of terrorism (although, ultimately, that is one of the sought but currently elusive goals of the draft Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism (Comprehensive Convention) discussed below). Instead, they are intended to act as guidance benchmarks to assist States in, e.g., carrying out actions requested or required by particular outputs and instruments. Various examples are considered here by way of illustration, drawing from a number of different sources.

Answer:

Historically, the dispute on the meaning of terrorism is as old as the laws of war. These laws of war were first codified in 1899. When Martens Clause which was introduced as a compromise to this dispute playing out between the Great Powers who considered francs-tireurs to be criminals subject to summary execution if captured, and smaller states who maintained that they should be considered lawful combatants,

The Martens Clause has formed a part of the laws of armed conflict since its first appearance in the preamble to the 1899 Hague Convention (II) with respect to the laws and customs of war on land:

More recently: a 1977 Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, see Article 1 Section 3: "armed conflicts in which peoples are fighting against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist régimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination" is considered by some to be pro-terrorism and specifically anti-Israeli. Since United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 ("Zionism is racism") was in effect in 1977 when that protocol was adopted.

JMS
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    No, no and no. The intentional murders, at close range, of hundreds of civilians on 10/7 and in many cases, the particular means and circumstances of those murders do not support the moral and legal uncertainty you are claiming here. Whatever Israel is up to in its own depredations against Palestinians. Otherwise, we might as well junk the term as Jorg's comments on the other answer. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 09 '23 at 16:28
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica, I wonder why you would add the proximity disclaimer, " at close range", to your moral outrage to the mass murder of children and innocents ? Your rather biased and unreasonable position doesn't change the facts. There is no consensus on the definition of Terrorism and never has been one. – JMS Nov 09 '23 at 16:40
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    -1 Sure, defining terror is not always easy. There are edge cases. It can sometimes depend on who is described, and who does the describing ("one mans freedom fighter"). But that just means that sometimes it's complex. That edge cases in the definition need to be refined. It doesn't mean that the term is meaningless. And it definitely doesn't mean that it's impossible to categorize the brutal slaughter and torture by Hamas. – tim Nov 09 '23 at 16:43
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    The proximity means it can't be explained away as collateral casualties. Lots of people will argue that Israel is killing more civilians in Gaza. But until the IDF goes door to door to deliberately shoot civilians, they aren't the same thing. Yes, even if findings of war crimes happen later. No consensus, eh? We'll see the concensus on your answer. As Tim states above, there are edge cases and debatable cases. 10/7 isn't one of them. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 09 '23 at 16:44
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica So when Israel drops bombs on the Jabalya, the largest Palestinian refuge camp in Gaza over multiple days destroying 20 buildings killing many hundreds of people for the stated reason of killing a single Hamas figure. To your mind that's "collateral damage"? Those people got in the way? It's ok cause the plane which dropped the laser guided munition from an F-35 was likely a safe distance away? – JMS Nov 09 '23 at 17:07
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica, Or when Israel dropped two bombs on the home of a Palestinian American, killing 42 of his relatives nearly half of whom were under the age of 12. collateral? Israel has plausible deniability? – JMS Nov 09 '23 at 17:08
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    Did you miss the part of my comment where I mentioned possible "findings of war crimes" re. the IDF operations in Gaza? Anyway, done on my end, we'll agree to disagree. The voting system will show if users here agree with you. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 09 '23 at 17:10
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    Honestly, I agree with the fact that proximity has nothing to with the actual acts legally. However, morally on the contrary, proximity definitely makes it much harder to manage and avoid civilian casualties in the case of a crossfire for example. – Veegas Nov 09 '23 at 17:29
  • @tim, The term terrorism can only be applied unilaterally by the perpetuation and promotion of ignorance. A wholly unreliable and unproductive approach favored by those focused on short term justification for tactics proven over decades to have no long term merit. – JMS Nov 13 '23 at 13:14
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    @JMS If terrorism is a useless term, how would you categorize the specific targeting of civilians - including children - for gruesome torture and murder to spread fear & for political gains? – tim Nov 13 '23 at 15:03
  • @tim Both sides have long history's of targeting innocents including women and children. One side is just more efficient at it. There simple is no side here which holds itself, in any meaningful way, to a higher moral standard. That's objective fact which one cannot argue with unless they value one side's innocents more than they value the other sides innocents and build their arguments reflecting that bias. – JMS Nov 13 '23 at 15:46
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    @JMS That's just not true. Only one "side" deliberately and specifically targets civilians with no intent of even attempting to target military installations. What you are doing is whitewashing the brutal slaughtering & torturing of Jewish civilians on 7.10. – tim Nov 13 '23 at 16:01
  • @tim It's absolutely true. It was true when future Israeli PM Aryal Sharon murdered Palestinians in Qibya massacre in 53 by tossing dynamite through their windows, mostly children. It was true in 2022, the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank in 15 years. And it was true in 2023 before Oct attacks when Israel was on pace to exceed the number of Palestinian children killed in 2022. – JMS Nov 13 '23 at 16:31
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    @tim, I am not whitewashing the killings by either side. You are. You clearly have a bias and represent that bias in your argument. Which would be fine if you had a solution beyond the continued killings of innocents, which you don't. Nobody who supports the violence on either side does. If more violence were part of a solution these troubles would have been over decades ago, because both side have always found supporters for more violence. – JMS Nov 13 '23 at 16:43