34

It doesn't take long reading about Gaza events and civilian casualties before finding examples of the pro-Israel narrative that those casualties are largely caused by Hamas' propensity to keep its military assets as close as possible to Gaza civilians.

For example, here's a NATO report from 2014

Hamas, an Islamist militant group and the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip, has been using human shields in conflicts with Israel since 2007. According to the Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the war crime of using human shields encompasses “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune from military operations.” Hamas has launched rockets, positioned military-related infrastructure-hubs and routes, and engaged the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) from, or in proximity to, residential and commercial areas.

Now, I deliberately took a source, NATO, that one can consider pro-Israel.

My question is however: is this tendency of Hamas to deliberately embed itself in close proximity to civilians also acknowledged by pro-Palestinian groups? Or, better yet, Gaza residents or UN/Red Cross personnel operating in Gaza? Just an acknowledgement of this happening is enough, no need to tie it with an intent to use civilians as human shields.

Yes, Gaza is heavily populated. And, yes, as noted in one answer, this will be an urban battle so civilian buildings will be used, as happens in all city clashes. But, for example, Hamas operating from within or nearby an active school, refugee camp, power station or hospital would seem more deliberate than "well, all of Gaza is full of civilians".

Do any pro-Palestinian sources accept/believe/claim/say Hamas does that?

Italian Philosophers 4 Monica
  • 83,219
  • 11
  • 197
  • 338
  • 4
    No, it is "fishing" for if this behavior has been acknowledged by people whom one would reasonably consider to be pro-Palestinian (and not instinctively anti-Hamas, one might add which means the Fatah claims wouldn't be as convincing). Certainly, people who survive IDF strikes aimed at Hamas militants in their proximity may have voiced this during interviews. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 01 '23 at 23:30
  • 1
    Could you please re-phrase the Question? Nothing whatever to do with the politics, rights or wrong of the situation but the current wording seems to me, anyway, too vague.

    Did you rather mean, for instance, 'Do any pro-Palestinian sources accept/believe/claim/say Hamas (does that)?'

    Either way, how might it matter whether that was done specifically to complicate IDF operations?

    – Robbie Goodwin Nov 03 '23 at 20:20
  • Thanks and I surely agree about the sensitivity… I mean no kind of insistence and if you're prepared to re-phrase it, how would my original suggestion 'Do any pro-Palestinian sources accept/believe/claim/say Hamas (does that)?' not work? – Robbie Goodwin Nov 03 '23 at 20:35
  • Thanks for taking that on board! – Robbie Goodwin Nov 06 '23 at 22:29
  • So you consider the vacant school answer 'solid'. Then here's more of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERWAmrflews Sure, it's the IDF as source, but you can see for yourself, unless you think they planted the stuff. – the gods from engineering Nov 07 '23 at 21:04
  • @Fizz Well, it's fairly solid. More solid than some of the self-assured hearsay spouted about around here. Ex: They put their HQ under a hospital, with no sourcing. Thanks for link, but I am not so interested in what IDF says. I personally am not doubting them as such, though they obviously have dog in this game. But it should be obvious that testimonies from Palestinians would carry a very different weight for those who do doubt Israeli claims. Names, circumstances, not just unnamed journalist who "saw things". AttackHeron looks like they'll be getting that bounty at this rate. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 07 '23 at 21:56
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica that wouldn't be fair. i am anti-hamas, so i surely have bias. what you need is share this question on different forums, preferably with people better equipped, speaking different dialects of arabic. and i'd have waited with the bountry until the end of the ground offense at least, in hopes IDF will allow independent experts, UN, whatever to examine the evidence they hadn't collapsed yet. when i want pro-palestinian sources i speak with refugees from the middle east, but that's more gossip than hard evidence. – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 08 '23 at 15:27
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica if you want, i can delete my answer, so framechallenge guy gets it. – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 08 '23 at 15:28
  • 1
    @Angriffsreiher I don't think you understood my reply to Fizz very well. I don't care which side the poster of the A backs. I do care that they cite sources that aren't inherently anti-Palestinian (or have a vested interest in making Hamas look bad). Multiple Western articles citing unnamed and unidentified people who "saw things" don't tell us too much. Someone, credibly identified, saying, "yes, my family was killed because Hamas staged next to our refugee camp", that's much stronger evidence, bounty-worthy.. Or the UN. No, I wouldn't expect a pro-Palestine user to post that answer. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 08 '23 at 16:36
  • The absence of solid answers, and the multiplicity of comments amounting to "of course, they do that, dontcha read the news?" while it wouldn't convince me - at all - that Hamas doesn't do this, would lead me to take future such arguments about the obviousness of Hamas doing this with a grain of salt. After all, it is very tempting to explain any and all military screwups with "there were bad guys there". Only in certain cases does the truth come out: example Other A makes a good point about the Q's context. But doesn't answer it. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 08 '23 at 16:41
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica sure. all i mean is to get firsthand accounts, you need to link this Q in other forums. this one, people just quoting CNN at each other. Our best bet here is UN and AI sources. (amnesty I, not artificial intelligence). and again, the bounty is a nice incentive, but i'd have hold it, until the end of IDF's ground invasion. we'll get more material then. its a good question and i also would very much like to get more info. – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 08 '23 at 16:55
  • 1
    The (recently) famous workshop under a bedroom was shown on the BBC. Not sure if you could the latter as pro-Palestinian, although many Israelis would say that. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67362960 – the gods from engineering Nov 09 '23 at 07:25
  • What does "embed" mean? You mention military assets once but generally talk more vaguely about Hamas embedding itself. Hamas has a lot of different operations, many of which are civilian. If you are specifically interested in Hamas stationing military equipment in civilian areas, you could be a lot clearer and would get better answers. Of course maybe you don't want better answers? – Stuart F Nov 17 '23 at 16:45
  • @StuartF Another useful terminology lesson? Go take a hike. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/embed – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 17 '23 at 18:05

5 Answers5

47

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency has confirmed that Hamas rockets have been found in two of the schools it operates in Gaza:

UNRWA condemns placement of rockets, for a second time, in one of its schools (link)

22 July 2014

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.

UNRWA strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law.

The Shifa Hospital

It seems the tradition of using hospitals for combat and interrogations goes back to 2007:

During the Fatah–Hamas conflict, Fatah attacked the hospital, drawing Hamas fire from within the building. (Human Rights Watch)

Some injured people brought to the hospital were killed by Hamas militants once inside. A doctor in the hospital reported, “The medical staff are suffering from fear and terror, particularly of the Hamas fighters, who are in every corner of the hospital.” (NIH)

Amnesty International documented in 2014 how the Hamas forces used the abandoned areas of the hospital to abduct, torture, and kill Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel under an operation codenamed “Strangling Necks”: (link)

As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.

VA television reporter from Finland’s Helsingin Sanomat, the “Helsinki Dispatch,” spent the night reporting from Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital, where she saw Hamas militants launching a rocket from the hospital’s parking lot (link1, link2)

Al-Aqsa TV (According to 4news)

A senior spokesman for the group, Sami Abu Zuhri, gave an interview on Palestinian station al-Aqsa TV on the subject, two days later:

He said: “This attests to the character of our noble, jihad-loving people – who defend their rights and their homes with their bare chests and their blood."

and

The policy of people confronting the Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation… we in Hamas call upon our people to adopt this policy in order to protect the Palestinian homes.”

I'd add that the most essential pro-palestinian voices to this discussion are the people living in Gaza srip, and there were attempts on public demonstrations:

demonstration that began in the camp under the title “We want to live.” (بدنا نعيش) (wafa.ps)

The recent July 2023 demonstrations indicate that perhaps the support for Hamas policies in the strip is not as unequivocal as the Al-Aqsa TV indicates. As demonstrations are quickly suppressed by Hamas and there were no elections since 2007, it is difficult to discern the situation.

For Shani Nicole Louk
  • 2,831
  • 1
  • 5
  • 26
  • 9
    The word vacant is interesting here. Hiding rockets in schools is a crime, but is a vacant school still a school? – gerrit Nov 02 '23 at 07:16
  • 9
    @gerrit Good point. One thing it is is a piece of valuable civ infrastructure that an attacking force ought to leave alone if there is no military targets in it. Another thing a school may be is operating as a refugee shelter. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 02 '23 at 07:27
  • 7
    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica Reading the statement from UNRWA, it seems their anger is rather because Hamas uses UN property, which should be neutral, rather than them using civilian buildings at all. As others have pointed out; when a civilian area is under attack, it's hard to avoid having soldiers and their weapons in civilian buildings. But the question is about using civilians as human shields, which is a different story; hiding rockets in a vacant UN school is bad, but if the school is vacant, it's not using human shields by itself. – gerrit Nov 02 '23 at 07:39
  • 14
    @gerrit "UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play." https://unwatch.org/confirmed-un-admits-palestinians-stored-rockets-in-unrwa-schools-and-highly-likely-used-school-premises-to-launch-attacks/ – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 02 '23 at 07:58
  • 3
    Sreenivasan Jain (New Delhi Television (NDTV), posted a detailed expose on August 5 2014, showing Hamas terrorists assembling, and then firing, a rocket in the middle of a neighborhood filled with residential buildings and hotels https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/news/watch-ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-332910 – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 02 '23 at 09:35
  • @gerrit: plenty of empty schools get used by both side in Ukraine. Answer is clearly 'no'. Also the Gaza protests were about something else despite the slogan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Gaza_economic_protests – the gods from engineering Nov 02 '23 at 10:57
  • 1
    @Fizz it seems your wiki link refers to a different protest. in 2019. the one i was writing about happened recently, in the 30th of july 2023 – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 02 '23 at 11:12
  • 2
    @gerrit "As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises" would indicate that at least staff was at the building. So we are left guessing what "vacant" means (no kids? no regular school on this day/week/month?). - An abandoned building in an active war zone is something different than a school closed for the weekend with staff still inside. – Falco Nov 02 '23 at 12:34
  • @Angriffsreiher: And? From your source "Youth groups had called for the July 30 movement to pressure Hamas to find a solution to the problems of the sector, where unprecedented rates of poverty and unemployment were recorded". It seems that slogan goes with economic demands still. – the gods from engineering Nov 02 '23 at 12:36
  • @Fizz yeah, regular economic stuff. water, food, jobs, not to die... – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 02 '23 at 12:37
  • 2
    @Falco Perhaps UN staff still inspect schools occasionally, even when they're closed due to war. – gerrit Nov 02 '23 at 15:10
  • 2
    @gerrit Given recent coverage debacles, there isn't any real distinction there. Let's say Israel targets an abandoned school storing munitions and demolishes it. There's bound to be some civilian casualties as a result, and the press coverage will then say (true but misleading) "Israel bombs school, kills X", with only a vague mention at the end that the school wasn't in use. – Machavity Nov 02 '23 at 15:33
  • Well, now, you can't complain anymore that I always try to get your questions closed, eh? – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 14 '23 at 05:04
  • 1
    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica not complaining now :) but i intend to open another bounty in a month or so to this question. hopefully we'll get more data. – For Shani Nicole Louk Nov 15 '23 at 09:56
  • Not sure all the organisations you reference can be called pro-Palestinian, e.g. you link to an academic paper that quotes Physicians for Human Rights Israel, as well as referencing various UN agencies. The quotes from Al-Aqsa TV (which can be called pro-Palestinian) are colorful but don't provide any evidence. I suggest you edit to indicate who is pro-Palestinian and describe what exactly they are saying. – Stuart F Nov 17 '23 at 16:43
4

Seems relevant, if a bit dated and indirectly related to use of human shields: Hamas does operate on al-Shifa hospital grounds, according to Amnesty:

Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict

As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital.

Now, whether running a torture center on hospital grounds in 2014 means Hamas uses hospitals for military purposes in 2023 is not totally clear. But it doesn't inspire much trust either.

Italian Philosophers 4 Monica
  • 83,219
  • 11
  • 197
  • 338
3

Yes.

Here's a striking example of Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, using toddlers as human shields. This image was posted by the pro-Israel Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, but the original source is Hamas's own website. Look at the linked article for many more such photos sourced from pro-Palestinian media. Chilling, actually. Yahya al-Sinwar using toddlers and human shields

From the same report comes the following Palestinian-sourced post, if not necessarily pro-Palestinian. I can't find the original Facebook post but here's the report on it:

Confirmation of Hamas’ use of the population as human shields

The Gazans do not generally protest the use Hamas and other terrorist organizations make of them as human shields. However, an unusual statement confirming the fact was a post uploaded by a Gazan named Khalil Amar Abu Ibrahim. He criticized the terms of the distribution of financial aid to the families of shaheeds in the Gaza Strip on behalf of the al-Ansar Charitable Association, which excluded children under the age of 15 and residents over the age of 60. He wrote there were dozens of families who lost their children because PIJ terrorist operatives barricaded themselves in their buildings. He personally lost his three children in the same attack, and they had served as human shields to protect where “so-and-so” from the “resistance” was staying (Facebook page of the al-Ansar Charitable Association, June 2, 2023).

YouDontSay
  • 359
  • 8
  • You got to be kidding, right? The Meir Amit anti-terrorism center is now a Pro-Palestinian source? And this "exposition" of human shields is an un-contextualized photo with politicians and children in it? Next time you see politician somewhere kissing a baby, that's a human shield??? Come on, this question is not anti-Israel in the least, but it does explicitly state Palestinian sources. Plenty of other human shield claims are being made about Hamas, but the express intent was to cite credible neutral sources, not Israeli-aligned ones, citing "Facebook pages". -1. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 19 '23 at 17:42
  • 3
    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica, to be fair the pro-Israel nature of Meir Amit was disclosed. The point was their sources for these excerpts are all pro-Palestinian. They opensourced this photo from Hamas's media department. I only showed one, but there are many more on Amit, check it out. The pattern is chilling and unmistakable: Crowds at rallies with cute little toddlers on the chief's lap. – YouDontSay Nov 19 '23 at 18:57
  • He spammed the same answer here, https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/56376/3835 I would suggest reviewing the commentary on it. – Evan Carroll Nov 21 '23 at 21:56
  • It's here. Although some good discussion there, too. – YouDontSay Nov 22 '23 at 03:16
0

Frame challenge.

Israel has announced a ground operation, so it would be highly likely that Hamas is preparing for urban warfare. From all the examples in last two decades that I can remember, such as Fallujah, Mosul, Aleppo and now Bakhmut, we have a good understanding of how urban warfare looks like. The defender organizes resistance in civilian housing and the attacker has to either suffer heavy casualties or destroy these houses with tanks or air strikes, and that comes in some combination. Once a line of houses is ruined, the defenders move to the next one and the attackers have to take that one too.

Where do you think Ukrainian army were in Mariupol during its siege? In a military base outside of civilian areas? No, they were taking hold of civilian high-rise commie blocks, to have guns there so that they can fire at approaching enemy, with obvious destruction of civilian areas stemming from that approach.

So if Hamas is preparing to resist IDF at all (which makes sense in their case), then of course they will be embedding themselves in civilian areas. So now civilians are moving out of north of Gaza but Hamas are moving in and making themself comfortable.

That, plus the fact that Gaza strip has very few space. It's mostly urban. Hamas could not arrange Surovikin line even if they wanted to stop IDF outside of urban area. Plus, they don't have mines and artillery in sufficient quantity for that kind of warfare. With small arms, they will be way more efficient fighting urban warfare.

As for the original question, it is itself framed in the way that Palestineans will refuse to accept. Any IDF "operations" in Gaza or West Bank are illegitimate (according to Palestine and most of the world, with the exception of "experts of human right violations" from USA and Western Europe), so their take would be that of course they are preparing to defend their cities in the face of foreign military invasion.

alamar
  • 16,107
  • 3
  • 44
  • 78
  • 38
    The question is not about fighting from civilian buildings. Of course the fighting is going to take place in civilian buildings. It is about fighting from buildings with civilians in them. Or deliberately staging near schools or hospitals. Since you are into giving a Ukraine spin, one gets the sense that cities like Bakhmut and Adviivka have largely been emptied of nearly all their population: Ukraine army is not trying to stage itself next to civs. Of course, one might suspect RU really doesn't give much of a crap wrt civs anyway. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 02 '23 at 07:19
  • 10
    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica But not Mariupol. Mariupol was not emptied and both sides blamed each other for not helping them out. Here, Israel has told Gazan residents to vacate the north, which they are likely doing to some extent. I doubt that any schools in north Gaza are open. – alamar Nov 02 '23 at 07:22
  • 5
    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica Within Gaza there is no difference between 'civilian buildings' and 'buildings with civilians in them'. Yes Israel told Palestians to evacuate the northern part of Gaza but that is like telling people in Rome on one side of the Tiber to evacuate to the other side of the Tiber within Rome. Doesn't excuse Hamas from using schools and hospitals which they also do but they don't have a choice to move the fighting away from buildings full of civilians. – quarague Nov 02 '23 at 09:40
  • 4
    Any army will use schools (with no school children with them obviously) in the time of hot war because they make for great barracks. A school when teaching is cancelled due to the war is way less of a civilian building than a supermarket. – alamar Nov 02 '23 at 09:49
  • "commie" ... want to rethink that phrase? Also, which other answer is the "original answer"? – CGCampbell Nov 02 '23 at 11:48
  • @CGCampbell Given the context - "civilian high-rise commie blocks" - I doubt "communist" is the intended meaning. I suspect "condominium" might have been intended, or some other colloquial phrase for a large communal building of many residences. – Just Me Nov 02 '23 at 12:23
  • 4
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=commieblocks - answer edited – alamar Nov 02 '23 at 12:25
  • 3
    @JustMe: Ukraine, like most post-soviet states, still has plenty of khrushchevkas and brezhnevkas and other similar soviet era apartment buildings. In context, I would've assumed that's what the term was referencing. – Ilmari Karonen Nov 02 '23 at 12:52
  • "Any IDF "operations" in Gaza or West Bank are illegitimate" - Oh really? Let them chop babies' heads and do nothing? – Jacob3 Nov 17 '23 at 09:23
  • 1
    @Jacob3 That's how Mosaic law works, but not international law. Desire for a revenge is not good grounds for invading a country. – alamar Nov 17 '23 at 09:33
  • 1
    @alamar, It's not revenge, it's a practical must Israel has no choice, Hamas must be totaly obliterated. – Jacob3 Nov 17 '23 at 09:44
  • 1
    @Jacob3 That sounds like a great talking point for a populist politician, but it does not make that legal internationally. – alamar Nov 17 '23 at 10:14
  • 1
    @alamar, war is not a war-crime. – Jacob3 Nov 17 '23 at 10:20
-10

I think this proceeds from a misunderstanding of what guerilla forces actually are.

They do not hide amongst the civilian population. They arise from the civilian population.

Unlike regular soldiery which is also drawn from the civilian population, there are no typical organisational trappings or physical structures for guerillas.

Guerilla fighters arise typically when states mal-administer and oppress a civilian population.

It's become quite common from the 20th century for these guerilla forces to arise, because technological differences have made it often easy for one side to attack the regular forces of another, often from afar.

So nowadays, there often arises a situation where a population is seriously oppressed, but also denuded of the regular forces which they would have formed and used to respond to that kind of attack in the historical past.

In the late 19th century and early 20th century, the first reaction of powerful empires with these asymmetrical technologies was to treat the entire civilian population as the enemy and pummel them.

What they found is that this has two effects.

Firstly, it releases even more dangerous forces from the civilian population in question. Such that even more civilians are mobilised into the guerilla warfare, often with a determination and fearlessness that eclipses what states with regular forces are capable of marshalling in response, and in unexpected ways that render regular forces either ineffective, or which causes (what's nowadays termed...) moral injury to those regular forces (and has consequences both for their discipline in regular service, and for their broader society when they return home).

Vietnam is an example of this (admittedly a later example from the USA, when European empires had already learned their lesson in their colonial possessions).

Secondly, exterminations of the civilian population in part or whole often not only end up consuming serious numbers of regular forces, or at least consuming serious economic resources, but also provokes hostile combinations of remaining enemies that the oppressor had previously encountered (or even successfully promoted and maintained) in a divided or passive condition.

Nazi Germany is an example of this.

For both of the above reasons, strong states have tried to encode laws against assaulting civilian populations, because it always seems to engulf and defeat them for reasons each new generation of regular officers and politicians cannot grasp.

The behaviour of the guerillas defies all their experience of how civilians think and behave in peaceful, wealthy environments (including how civilians react to policemen or soldiers, when those policemen or soldiers threaten force), and how easily regular professional forces collapse once you destroy their materiel and commanding structures.

By contrast, guerillas never seem to collapse, and no matter how high the bodies mount there seems to be another fearless guerilla ready to die in order to deal damage to the oppressing side - even women and children are mobilised.

So the straightforward answer is, yes, Hamas guerillas "hide" in the population, because populations naturally produce and host guerillas from their own number under conditions of oppression.

I should say, the oppression to which I refer are the objective conditions of Gaza. I'm not expressing a position on the political causes. I'm suggesting that guerillas arise from the objective conditions of oppression, regardless of any political rights or wrongs of why those oppressive conditions may have arisen.

Israel is correct in how it analyses the entire Gazan population as being a collective threat, with no real differentiation between civilian and fighter.

But it's proposed solution always falls into one of the two follies I mention above. It will either pummel Gaza and release more dangerous forces, or it will attempt extermination and unite the Arab world whilst alienating it's Western liberal patron states.

Biden is busy trying to work them into only option 1 (pummeling) instead of option 2 (extermination), since the dangerous forces released under option 1 would overwhelm Israel alone, but it is still a manageable problem for Israel's patrons collectively who can allocate more economic resources to reinforce Israel.

Option 2 would cause internal political problems for the patrons, and possibly bring them into sudden confrontation with an un-cowable Arab alliance, which is why they won't allow it.

Steve
  • 6,258
  • 12
  • 30
  • 19
    They put their base of operations under a hospital. That's very much using civilian infrastructure as shields, not arising from the civilian population. And Hamas is of course a well-organized organization (a terror organization, as well as the governing organization of Gaza). It's not some organically grown collection of individual guerilla forces. – tim Nov 02 '23 at 12:10
  • 1
    @tim, their purpose for doing so probably isn't as human cover per se, but because it's a piece of large concrete infrastructure which makes it impossible to x-ray what's underneath or easily track who is coming and going. Probably the only major infrastructure Israel won't attack pre-emptively is civilian infrastructure (because it risks lapsing into "option 2" above, and then having the choke chain pulled by its patrons), so that is naturally where all the guerilla infrastructure also ends up. Obviously, if Israel then attacks a hospital post-hoc, it's doing "option 1". (1/2) – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 12:24
  • 2
    The notion that Israel is snookered in acting either way, is why so many seemingly powerful states are mired and defeated by guerillas. It's amongst the reasons why strong states have laws against attacking civilians, because whilst states are quite powerful, they aren't infinitely powerful, and like the physics of a nuclear bomb, the forces that can be released from a civilian population, at extreme temperatures and pressures, are a lot larger than would be expected from conventional wisdom and everyday experience. (2/2) – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 12:25
  • 11
    This is risibly besides the point. Yes, guerrillas emanate from civ ranks. Yes, killing too many civs to suppress them can cause more support for them. Yes, they are hard to defeat, at least on their own territory. But, no, once you are armed you are not a civ anymore. And, no, deliberately seeking proximity to civs or off-limit areas like hospitals is not part of warfare-as-usual. Plenty of guerrillas manage without it (though Gaza's geography doesn't help). All this long-winded historical referencing of Nazis and Vietnam just muddies the waters but makes this answer no more on topic. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 02 '23 at 16:17
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica, it's certainly part of guerilla-warfare-as-usual. The whole advantage the (active) guerilla has is that he swims amongst a sea of sympathetic civilians, attacks on which civilians will often only increase sympathy for the guerilla and swell his active ranks. Hospitals are used in Gaza because these are effective places to base, being public, busy, and having all kinds of civilian supplies coming and going. My answer was to point out that the guerilla and the civilian are inseparable, and therefore asking whether they hide or co-locate is a strange question. (1/2) – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 16:40
  • The guerilla will not willingly do anything that grants advantage to his enemy or willingly allow himself to be distilled or discerned from the civilian in the slightest. His purpose is not to protect individual civilian lives - it is to express an overwhelming collective force against those who are oppressing those civilians as a collective. The purpose is liberation of the community as a body of people, not preservation of the current generation. The numbers can and will be made back up later. (2/2) – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 16:42
  • 3
    A guerrilla can choose to hide and disappear amongst civilians, true. But fighting from their proximity is an entirely different thing. And not all that common. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Nov 02 '23 at 16:43
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica, I think in other cases (like jungle warfare), that's just an expression of the fact that the guerilla can hit and run, and there is a larger geography over which to achieve whatever desirable configuration of people. It's not however a tenet of guerilla warfare to never fight near civilians - the guerillas are the civilians. For an analogy, think of how the policeman sleeps amongst the civilians at night - he is also a civilian, he has no separate barracks or daily life, and he performs a function to which civilian communities are (usually) sympathetic. (1/2) – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 17:01
  • The (regular) soldier is not usually a civilian, because he does not arise from any community in which he works. On offensive duties, this is obvious. But even on pacification duties, he is typically sent by (and represents) an enemy force - the state, versus the community that is starting to boil into a guerilla force due to the state's mal-administration. That is not usually true of the policeman who remains a civilian, and when it does become true of the policeman (that he ceases to be a civilian and becomes a soldier), it's extremely dangerous for the state and for the police force. (2/2) – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 17:02
  • 8
    That doesn't provide a pro-Palestinian source. It also seems to avoid giving a straight yes, as if adopting the moniker "guerrilla" changes everything. – prosfilaes Nov 02 '23 at 19:31
  • @prosfilaes, as I say it was a frame challenge to the very question. It explained that there appeared to be faulty assumptions in the question. As for "guerilla", isn't that an accepted term for these situations? – Steve Nov 02 '23 at 19:50
  • @Steve guerilla is the accepted term for these situations. I don't see how that negates the question "does Hamas indeed embed itself into civilian areas (to complicate IDF operations)?" That "Hamas considers themselves civilians and hangs around non-Hamas unarmed civilians to get non-Hamas unarmed civilians killed" is not exactly a frame challenge. – prosfilaes Nov 03 '23 at 18:28
  • 1
    @prosfilaes, if you accept the point that they are civilians, then Hamas hanging around unarmed civilians is like policemen hanging around unarmed civilians. Something would be wrong if they weren't. Hamas doesn't "embed" itself into civilians, like a parasite searching out and latching onto a host - Hamas arises from those civilians to perform a military function for the civilian collective. When you echo things back to me, I'm really not convinced you're getting this essential point that guerillas and unarmed civilians are not different groups, they are different roles in the same group. – Steve Nov 03 '23 at 20:08
  • @Steve Are you suggesting that all Palestinians are terrorists, and should be hunted down? Because clearly Hamas is a problem that must be rooted out, and you repeatedly seem to suggest that Hamas and the Palestinian people are one and the same. –  Nov 03 '23 at 21:44
  • 1
    @user47899, no I'm suggesting you can't "root out" the guerillas, instead you have to stop the assault on the whole civilian population which causes the emergence of guerilla fighters in a civilian population. – Steve Nov 04 '23 at 03:00
  • I don't accept that anyone who fires upon military forces is a civilian. Police is a bad analogy; let's try LARPers. They are definitely civilians, but as LARPers, when they pull out their foam swords and other weapons, it's not around unarmed non-LARPers, or in working hospitals, because that might cause panic and might get someone hurt. One might quibble about the word "embed" without missing the fundamental idea that acting as a military force in places like a hospital, be it LARPers or Hamas, is a way to get innocent bystanders hurt. – prosfilaes Nov 04 '23 at 11:49
  • @prosfilaes, what I was trying to show with the policeman example, is that while a policeman performs a distinct role from most other civilians, he isn't an external imposition upon a civilian population. He is supposed to be one of the civilians, who operates his policing role with the broad consent and approval of the whole community. The policeman swims amongst the civilians like the guerilla does, and out of that water he is useless. I'm not attempting to suggest the policeman is a guerilla, I'm attempting to illustrate the nature of the relationship to the civilian population. (1/3) – Steve Nov 04 '23 at 13:03
  • Whether you accept that the guerilla is acting in the capacity of a civilian or not, is less important than recognising that the guerilla is of the civilian community in the first place. He arises internally from the civilian community. He does not "embed" himself into civilians, as if like coming from outside - the civilian population produces him. And you can "mow the lawn" forever, but the grass won't stop growing just because it is mown, and it's root is the civilian population. (2/3) – Steve Nov 04 '23 at 13:03
  • 1
    As I've already said, the purpose of the guerilla is not to preserve extant civilian lives. His purpose is to liberate the community as a collective, spending individual lives if necessary to do so. That is also how the soldier thinks - his purpose is not to preserve soldiers' lives, his purpose is to die to grant advantage to the collective from whence he came. Also, it is the Israelis who attack hospitals, not Hamas - civilians know this. That the guerilla does not respond to the Israeli's deterrence, is because his purpose is to liberate the collective, not to protect individuals. (3/3) – Steve Nov 04 '23 at 13:06
  • What I was showing with the LARPer example is that most civilians separate themselves from the greater civilian community when their actions would bring risk to that community. The question is, basically, does Hamas behave in ways that increase the risk to Palestinian civilians? Again, you're acting as if adopting the moniker "guerrilla" changes everything; whatever their purpose, whatever labels you want to put on them, they embed themselves into civilian areas (again, which target shooters, LARPers, drag racers, and many others remove themselves from) at the cost of Palestinian lives. – prosfilaes Nov 06 '23 at 20:25
  • It risks the life of the community from the guerrilla's perspective, not necessarily objectively. And again, it doesn't matter why they won't do it. They don't. You're dodging the question so you can dodge the implied moral judgement. The IDF is acting in accordance with its function as well. – prosfilaes Nov 06 '23 at 20:39
  • 1
    @prosfilaes, but any separation between the guerilla and civilian also risks the life of the community, by making the guerilla's function less effective and prioritising individual life over the collective. That's why they won't do it. It's not an embedding, it's a failure to disembed. They are embedded by default, and arise from within, and their effectiveness is greatest when within. That the Israelis then pummel the whole civilian population is immaterial - the Israelis, or people far worse than them, would attack civilians without mercy if there was no prospect of resistance at all. (1/2) – Steve Nov 06 '23 at 20:40
  • 1
    I am granting that Hamas put the civilian population at risk of immediate retaliation from the Israelis - in the sense that if Hamas guerillas stood apart, and allowed themselves to be destroyed, the Israelis would probably be content only to kill the guerillas, and perhaps not proceed to measures that kill non-combatants. But populations that allow themselves to be cleared from territory so easily, probably perish, and Israel would not stand down from their policy of lebensraum for Jews. (2/2) – Steve Nov 06 '23 at 20:40
  • 1
    @prosfilaes, in respect of the IDF, I'm not saying they aren't performing their function. But their function is to enforce an apartheid. Israeli politics is explicitly opposed to a situation where Arab Israelis may become the majority, despite the fact that Arabs are the settled majority in both the region and within the de facto borders of Israel. And the Jewish Israelis are not indigenously powerful - they draw all their real strength from being a settler colony propped up by Western patrons, which will be the cause of their fate if the world ever reconfigures. – Steve Nov 06 '23 at 20:48
  • The Palestinians, or people far worse than them would attack civilians without mercy if there was no prospect of Israeli resistance at all. Populations that allow themselves to be cleared from territory so easily, probably perish. The start of discussion is at least answering questions honestly instead of evading. – prosfilaes Nov 06 '23 at 23:33
  • 1
    @prosfilaes, I agree with your mirrored analysis. Not all Israelis are actually from Israel, and the Israeli government intentionally pumps immigration as demographic ballast. But I'm sympathetic to the settlement of those Israelis who have been present for at least their whole lives, and I'm not suggesting they should be removed either. Ultimately I don't have a decisive solution to the whole problem to offer. What I can say is that punishment beatings of the Palestinian population won't resolve the guerilla problem. – Steve Nov 07 '23 at 10:11