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Dowry (where the parents of the bride pay the parents of the groom), in India has a minimum sentence of 5 years even for non aggressive and non-coerced dowry. This is in comparison to other violent forms of extortion, which don't have a minimum punishment. Why is that?

Stančikas
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    So, dowry itself is illegal? Without engaging into any shenanigans and demands? I.e. if I give $ for my daughter's wedding (no not just paying for the ceremonies), the groom commits a crime punishable by 5 years in prison if they don't refuse it? – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Mar 08 '23 at 21:32

3 Answers3

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Dowry, in India, is a deeply cultural thing. The general gist of dowry is that the bride's family must provide sufficient dowry to the groom's parents. The problem is that it is also associated with a form of domestic violence called bride burning

"The husband's family believes they have not received enough money for their son at the time of the wedding, perhaps because they are of a higher caste or some such reason, and that's when the harassment starts."

Often, says Fernandes, the husband's family begin pressuring the wife's family right after the wedding.

"They start asking for cash, or gold, or consumer goods like washing machines or televisions. Whatever it is they believe is owed to them or was promised to them, luxury goods that they can get the bride's family to pay for."

The woman's mother-in-law is usually the perpetrator. She douses the woman with a flammable liquid and sets her on fire. This crime, as extreme as it sounds, is shockingly common in India

Bride-burning, as this type of crime is most commonly referred to, accounts for the death of at least one woman every hour in India, more than 8000 women a year.

It is a crime that has little prosecution (2015 numbers)

Of the 671 bride burnings she knew of in the area surrounding Bangalore last year, only about 50 cases had been formally registered by police last year. Nationally, convictions are secured in only about 15 per cent of cases that make it to court.

As a result, the punishments for any dowry offenses are likely higher as a deterrent to the underlying problem of bride burning.

Machavity
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    Yes, but the Q did ask about non-violent dowry crimes. I do think you are on to something however. I wonder if it the intent behind the severity is not a bit like say currency forgery. On the surface, sending someone faking bills to jail for a loong time seems odd for a non-violent crime. But it is a crime that needs strict deterrence because it would cost society a lot if trust in currency was lost. Likewise, maybe the intent behind harsh sentences for non-violent dowry crime is to deter dowry coercion before it escalates to... your answer. Maybe someone more in the know can answer. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Mar 07 '23 at 21:56
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    Gifts that were not demanded are not cosidered dowry, hence it is questionable if such a thing as a "non-coerced dowry" exists – Stančikas Mar 08 '23 at 06:37
  • aren't even demanded dowry non violent ? –  Mar 08 '23 at 17:48
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica: To use a more American analogy, suppose someone goes into a shop and says "Gee, this is a really nice shop you have here. I hope nothing bad happens to it. By the way, my daughter is getting married, and I wonder if you'd like to donate $500 to help give her a nice wedding?" The first two statements by themselves might be perceived as a threat, but could also be innocent. The third statement, however, would suggest an intention to profit from the perception of a threat. – supercat Mar 08 '23 at 19:15
  • What's the connection between these two topics? How do we get from the dowry being too small to murder? – J. Mini Mar 08 '23 at 20:56
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    @J.Mini Again, it's a cultural thing. India has struggled with valuing women in general. Given that, it's not hard to see where an entitled woman feels she is owed more from a bride than she got and, thus, destroys a life her society doesn't see as valuable as her son's – Machavity Mar 09 '23 at 15:04
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    Is that a characteristic of the applicable Indian definition of "dowry", @Stančikas? Because the general English definition of "dowry" does not include any form of coercion as a required component. In general (not necessarily in India specifically), a dowry may instead be a flat offer by the bride's family, or may be negotiated between the families. Indeed, it seems quite strange to me that the word would be applied to valuables coerced after the wedding, as opposed to as a condition for the marriage to happen at all. – John Bollinger Mar 09 '23 at 15:05
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    @John Bollinger gifts that have been given to the bride at the time of her marriage for her welfare and benefit shall not be considered dowry under the Dowry Prohibition Act, 1961. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/legal/will/money-relationships-which-gifts-in-a-marriage-are-considered-as-dowry/articleshow/88607838.cms – Stančikas Mar 09 '23 at 15:28
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    Ok, @Stančikas, but my first take on that is that the intended focus should be on "to the bride", not on "gifts". Because indeed, the usual meaning of "dowry" involves valuables conveyed by the bride's family to the groom's family. So it sounds like it's protecting the practice of giving wedding gifts, not defining "dowry" to require coercion. – John Bollinger Mar 09 '23 at 15:36
  • @supercat The obvious difference is that shop owner does not get anything from your daughter getting married to somebody else; whereas bride's family get their daughter married making dowry a transaction. Making transactions illegal tends to turn markets nasty. – alamar Mar 10 '23 at 14:15
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They are the same crime in a sense but of two different kinds - one that is a crime in the eyes of law as well as in the eyes of society; another that is a crime in the eyes of law but not the society.

Someone who commits a crime of first kind has repercussions in the form of punishment prescribed by the law as well as losing societal support forever.

Someone who commits a crime of the second kind doesn't lose societal support. Hence, to compensate (i.e. so that the sum total of negative consequences of commiting the crime stays the same), the punishment prescribed by the law is increased.

whoisit
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    Can you explain what you refer to by "first kind" and "second kind"? – PMF Mar 08 '23 at 06:26
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    as stated in the first sentence - both are crimes in the eyes of law, but "first kind" in society as well, "second kind" what society accepts even though unlawful. – Guntram Blohm Mar 08 '23 at 06:34
  • How would a democratic society punish a crime which is not such in the eyes of society? – alamar Mar 08 '23 at 09:05
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    @alamar Some democratic societies wouldn't punish those crimes, for example - marital rape is still not a crime in Malaysia. When social reformists win, and the society is at least a little uncomfortable with such practices (such as in the case of dowry), then there are laws yet society continues to accept those practices (dowry is still practiced in many forms). – whoisit Mar 08 '23 at 09:22
  • In this case it seems that legal intervention made the issue much worse - when the groom's family could demand dowry explicitly and get it before marriage, there was no incentive to burn four figures of brides annually when an under-the-table dowry request is refused. – alamar Mar 08 '23 at 09:45
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    @alamar What makes you think these types of murder have increased due to this law or at all? I don't see that in the question or in this answer. – Eric Nolan Mar 08 '23 at 10:37
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    @alamar apart from Eric Nolan's comment, yours sounds a lot like "if we decriminalize rape, women will suffer less crimes" or even "if we tell women that they must have sex with whoever asks them to, there will be less rape." – SJuan76 Mar 08 '23 at 10:48
  • Wikipedia says burnings became prevalent after 1993. I don't see how dowry equals rape or coercing for sex. I've heard that in China it is virtually impossible to find a bride if you don't own an apartment to share with her. Is this also a man-rape now? – alamar Mar 08 '23 at 13:28
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    I feel this answer is sort of right, and also sort of get's it's cause and effect backwards. The point is not to have 'equal punishment'. The point of all laws isn't really the punishment of current criminals so much as to detour future criminals. Problem is in general criminals don't really consider the exact length of detention before committing a crime, they just assume their get away with it. The major factor here is less deterrence to the criminal and more about making a statement to the public that this isn't something that should be approved of to try to sway public away from it. – dsollen Mar 08 '23 at 18:19
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    @SJuan76 - When all crimes are legal, crime disappears! – Obie 2.0 Mar 08 '23 at 22:16
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    @alamar: dowry isn't rape, that's not SJuan76 was arguing. They were making an analogy to a different crime, one which is widely agreed should be treated as a crime. And that if you make it not illegal, no more crimes, but bad things still happen to victims. (In this case, extortion of brides' families, which has presumably dropped since dowry was made illegal? Correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption.) – Peter Cordes Mar 10 '23 at 10:12
  • It's just rape is worse than the fallout of fighting it, but the fallout of fighting dowry seems to be worse than dowry itself. Dowry is a transactional arrangement, which was made illegal so it seemingly turned into extortion, which is much worse. Not sure why that transactional arrangement had to be made illegal. – alamar Mar 10 '23 at 10:19
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    @alamar dowry was much worse than just a "transactional arrangement". It had effects as far reaching as female homicide (i.e. families used to kill their girl child as a foetus or infant because they didn't want to pay dowry for her marriage). – whoisit Mar 10 '23 at 10:24
  • @whoisit I don't think it's possible to outlaw not wanting a baby girl. If you outlaw dowry people don't become any more sympathetic towards the idea, but you get bride burnings as a bonus. If anything, selective abortions ought to make dowries almost meaningless when there is scarcity of brides. – alamar Mar 10 '23 at 12:22
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There are always two punishments for an action that is seen as a crime:

  • The first comes from the law court and is served in the jail.
  • The second comes from the society, commonly through the loss of the social status but depending on the times one can also get hand severed.

These two systems are often approximately aligned, but there may be behavior that is unacceptable by one and tolerable, even honorable in extreme cases, by another. Some historical rudiments may still have traces in the society and be just horrible. We can hardly trace why they existed starting from, may have something to do with the life being much harder at that time.

From Wikipedia and other answers looks like the dowry related killings have low reporting, disclosure and conviction percentages. In general it is unclear what the groom, father of the bride and brothers of the bride are doing, why do not they come at least for revenge. This may indicate that the society for some reasons is somewhat more tolerant.

When the systems are not aligned, the side that sees the behavior as unacceptable, and seeks to exterminate it, may put much harsher punishment, to compensate the lack of support from another side. Both government and society can do this.

Stančikas
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    For a Western example of this, killing someone in a duel frequently carried a higher penalty than simple murder. – Mark Mar 10 '23 at 00:13