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I sort of get the official reasons why the West did not just let Russia to just swallow Ukraine:

  • Invading other countries and taking what's not yours is bad (even if some of it used to be yours in the past). Whoever attempts to do so needs to be stopped and educated, even if they have nukes.
  • Not keeping your promises is bad. Again, whoever does so needs to be taught some good manners.
  • The modern Ukraine is fresh, democratic, shining and promising. It would be a pity see it go down the maw of a big, rogue, filthy & totalitarian bully.

But. Let's just step back and see what would have happened if the West stayed absolutely neutral and did not support Ukraine at all. Imagine no military supplies, no money, no training/advice, nothing:

  • Russia would have squashed Ukraine forces, removed Zelenskyy and put a puppet in his place (e.g. Yanukovych).
  • Ukraine would have de-facto become just yet another part of Mordor Russia.
  • There would have been virtually no civilian blood (comparing to how much has spilt by now).
  • There would have been virtually no destruction of buildings/infrastructure.
  • There would have been virtually no new influx of refugees.
  • Europe would have continued buying Russian oil & gas. The prices would stay stable, no energy crisis would occur.
  • The inflation would stay normal.

And, arguably, Russia wouldn't have continued invading further in Europe. Unlike Ukraine, that would have been a direct aggression against NATO: Russia may be blatantly impudent but not suicidal. Also, whereas trying to conquer Ukraine sort-of makes sense in the light of it being the common historical ancestor land, trying to get other parts of Europe wouldn't have that sort of "justification".

So, the above was the alternative scenario which by all means was available to the West, and I struggle to believe that the availability of it wasn't clear. No rocket science or quantum mechanics here.

Yet the West has chosen the costly and bloody option.

Was it really about standing on principle of what is right and what is wrong?

Somehow it seems way too naive to accept that as the real motive (no matter how I may personally agree with the principles).

Rather, wasn't the whole thing indeed just about leadership on this planet? Childish power game? Aiming to establish/maintain a single main leader nation/agenda/philosophy vs allowing multiple ones?

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    Seems odd to characterize this as "the West has chosen the costly and bloody option" ... seems like Russia made that choice. – Azor Ahai -him- Oct 03 '22 at 20:08
  • I searched but I can't find it. There are questions about the benefits to Russia and the benefits of certain actions to the Ukraine. – DJClayworth Oct 03 '22 at 20:09
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    I'm voting to close this Q because it fits the pattern "I don't believe the official reasons, what were the real reasons?" Answers to these kinds of Qs tend to be primarily opinion-based. – the gods from engineering Oct 03 '22 at 20:12
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    Seems to me this is asking why we can't just ignore the rights of Ukraine and all of the citizens so that Putin can get his way and possibly move on to doing the same with other countries now that a precedent has been set. – Joe W Oct 03 '22 at 20:18
  • As a suggestion: if you're looking for alternative imputed motives, you should narrow it down to some POV, like: "what does the Russian government say is motivating the West's response?" Or substitute (Russia) with some other actor you're interested in hearing their viewpoint. – the gods from engineering Oct 03 '22 at 20:25
  • somewhat related, if only on (not) recognizing annexation: https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/57154/21531 – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Oct 03 '22 at 20:54
  • @AzorAhai-him- Sure, I'm not saying Russia did not make that choice. But you can't deny that staying neutral was an option for the West, and that option would have been much less costly and bloody, can you? – Yet Another Dude Oct 03 '22 at 21:14
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    @YetAnotherDude the blood is Ukraine's and they seem to be willing to pay the price to not become another Belarus. Of course, the blood is also Russia's but they could go home. By this logic, fighting tyranny is always the wrong choice, meek submission the correct one. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Oct 03 '22 at 21:16
  • @YetAnotherDude No, I can't endorse that opinion. – Azor Ahai -him- Oct 03 '22 at 21:16
  • @Fizz Didn't know that a well-grounded opinion (referring some facts from which the opinion could be reasonably inferred) would be off-topic here. – Yet Another Dude Oct 03 '22 at 21:16
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica Sure, but the question is about the choice of the West, not that of Ukraine. – Yet Another Dude Oct 03 '22 at 21:20
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    then why bring up the notion of blood spilled? it is not Western blood, so you're basically saying "no, you can't choose to defend yourself cuz loss of human lives, we'll decide, on your behalf, that you have to live subjugated instead". It just doesn't seem all that solid an argument. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Oct 03 '22 at 21:24
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica I'm not quite following your assumptions re "you" and "we", but that's irrelevant. Re the notion of blood, does it really matter whether it is Western/Ukranian/Russian? It's people's blood. All the 3 sides had the technical leverage to prevent it. But this particular question is why the West didn't prevent it by way of choosing to be neutral and so at the cost of making Ukraine subjugated. What's in it for the West? Why is keeping Ukraine independent of Russia so important for it so that it's okay to spill blood? – Yet Another Dude Oct 04 '22 at 00:33
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    @YetAnotherDude If your country was invaded, would you defend it or would you be OK that other defend it? If you forego violence entirely, then yes, there is a certain logic in your position, but you should make that standpoint more apparent in your Q. Someone asked about pacifism & this war a while back. Otherwise, from the Ukrainian PoV this would seem the epitome of a just war. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Oct 04 '22 at 01:39
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    This question is being discussed on Meta. – Rick Smith Oct 04 '22 at 01:45
  • @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica even if one believes in just war, there are may be reasons for moderating one's stance, as a matter of tactics/strategy, if one cannot win immediately or if going for immediate win might turn out too costly. Also, truce/ceasefire and peace agreement are two very different beasts - the former does not require relinquishing any claims to one's territory, independence, etc. – Roger V. Oct 04 '22 at 10:28
  • You mentioned Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine gave their nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for security guarantees. Now not only Russia broke those guarantees, it invaded Ukraine and keeps threatening rest of the world "Don't you dare interfere, 'cause we have nuclear weapons". 1/2 – Tadeusz Kopec Oct 04 '22 at 11:17
  • Letting them get away with this would be a clear signal to everybody "Don't trust nuclear countries. Don't give away your nuclear weapons if you have them. Try to obtain them, if you don't have them yet." And that would be really devastating to world order. 2/2 – Tadeusz Kopec Oct 04 '22 at 11:20
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    "I don't believe the official reasons, what were the real reasons?" Answers to these kinds of Qs tend to be primarily opinion-based. Firstly, the official reasons are often not true - either because politicians lie or simplify things or simply focus on short-term objectives. Secondly, one can provide an in-depth analysis on the basis of facts, historical knowledge, and logical reasoning, without being opinion-based. Ideally, this is what the discussions in this community should be - not trivia questions of type has anyone in X said that Y? – Roger V. Oct 04 '22 at 14:00
  • @RogerVadim: you can put that as an answer to the meta-Q about this Q; it was already linked in another comment above. Also, IF this were math of physics I'd agree with you. But questions about motivations are more difficult address like that, IMHO. – the gods from engineering Oct 06 '22 at 11:30
  • @RogerVadim Another example would be https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/75828/which-countries-do-have-both-a-motive-and-a-capability-of-disrupting-nord-stream , but the difference there is that's allowing for a range of actors and motives as opposed to asking for "the real one". (You're welcome to try answer that Q according to your standards, if you think it's easy.) – the gods from engineering Oct 06 '22 at 11:36
  • @RogerVadim: BTW, if we're just going with deduction(s) and analysis based on historical knowledge, why did you VTC https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/75910/what-would-be-the-political-implications-if-it-turns-out-that-poland-blew-up-the ? We can surely apply the same to "what would X do if ..." – the gods from engineering Oct 06 '22 at 11:48
  • @Fizz But questions about motivations are more difficult address like that, IMHO. - what we disagree about is precisely whether the question is about motivations or not. Assuming the conclusion as foregone is a logical fallacy (see Begging the question). Building logical arguments from facts is a tradition going back to ancient Greeks - it is not a matter of math or physics, but of intellectual rigor. – Roger V. Oct 06 '22 at 11:50
  • @Fizz Regarding your latest comment: whataboutism is also a fallacy. That question was based on hypothetical premise, not on facts. – Roger V. Oct 06 '22 at 11:50
  • @RogerVadim: mkay, it's good to know you draw a line somewhere, i.e. at hypothetical (actions) based on hypothetical (circumstances), while hypothetical (motives) based on (known) facts are ok with you. I do agree that the title of this Q doesn't correctly reflect the Q in bold in the body. I guess you wanted to answer/address the title Q (which indeed is not necessarily about [initial] motivations). But someone can write a much shorter Q about West's gains. – the gods from engineering Oct 06 '22 at 11:59
  • @Fizz I said: one can provide an in-depth analysis on the basis of facts, historical knowledge, and logical reasoning. You interpret it as: while hypothetical (motives) based on (known) facts are ok with you. I think the difference between logical reasoning and hypothetical motives is pretty clear. What I argue for is to stop dismissing uncomfortable/difficult questions as hypothetical or based on motives. – Roger V. Oct 06 '22 at 12:06

1 Answers1

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The thing with allowing forcible redefinitions of borders is that brings back a major motivation for wars, territorial expansion.

If on the other hand, conquered and annexed territories are not recognized as being part of the aggressor, and if territorial acquisition is counteracted on principle, we are left with a lot of other causes for the waging of wars, but not this one.

A second motivation is that the rest of Europe isn't particularly comfortable with a Russia that wants to re-impose its will upon its neighbors. Stopping it in Ukraine, by arming Ukraine, is cheaper and safer than stopping it elsewhere, in an EU/NATO country. This was for example answered here re. Poland's motivation in assisting Ukraine.

Third, from a realpolitik viewpoint, there is a real risk for the West in taking the easy way out, like they did in 2014. Not so much with Russia, which was already known to be a shadow of its Soviet predecessor, even before outdoing itself in mediocrity during this war. But with China which would have taken that as a sign of weakness and possibly moved in its own neighborhood (Taiwan, Spratleys, etc...). China has the potential to be a much more challenging opponent than Russia and losing Taiwan's, and indeed China's own, supply chains would be a much harder economic blow to the West.

Best to negotiate a compromise from a position of strength and resolve, not weakness and timidity.

Last, the suggested approach * was taken by Europe in 2014, keeping the peace at all costs. Yet, here we are in 2022, with the same needs-to-be-accommodated Putin. And no peace.

* the armaments given Ukraine pre-2022 weren't very numerous and mostly defensive in nature, ill-suited to invade. Ukraine was kept out of NATO. Ukraine presented no real threat to Russia.

Italian Philosophers 4 Monica
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  • How big is the case for many more wars coming back if Russia was allowed to get away with redefining its borders to those of Ukraine? Would the whole world start trying to re-define borders? Or would only a few countries settle some remainders and that's all? – Yet Another Dude Oct 03 '22 at 21:26
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    The West followed exactly your logic in 2014 so is now the proverbial scalded cat. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Oct 03 '22 at 21:30
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    @YetAnotherDude: the problem for NATO is that among those "few countries" with sizeable Russian minorities, some are in NATO. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/71718/what-if-any-groups-of-pro-russian-separatists-are-in-east-european-countries And you don't know who else may get ideas (again). China and Pakistan both claim various chunks of India, They both fought (separate) wars against India etc. – the gods from engineering Oct 03 '22 at 22:17
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    @YetAnotherDude: and while not so much NATO's problem, Russia's own formal allies from the CSTO are either silent (most of them) or not recognizing the recent referendums (Kazakhstan) https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-annexation-ukraine-central-asia/32065306.html Most if not all of them have significant Russian minorities too, so yeah... – the gods from engineering Oct 05 '22 at 03:19
  • Re your "2014 logic" reference, I am not sure what significant changes in terms of borders you are referring to. It was just Ukraine back then that Russia had invaded, and it is still only Ukraine today. What's the case for any real chances that Russia would go after any NATO country? – Yet Another Dude Oct 06 '22 at 00:59
  • @Fizz So, are you essentially saying that the West is worried that the USSR could assemble back (less the few countries already in NATO)? – Yet Another Dude Oct 06 '22 at 01:25