Germany has recently announced that while they’ll keep two of their nuclear power plants operational during the winter, they’re still planning to shut them down in the spring. But why aren’t they doing a complete U-turn and keeping the nuclear power plants permanently active in addition to building new ones? It seems like a viable option to deal with Russian energy supplies going away.
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3Comments deleted. Please remember that comments are for discussing the question itself. They are not for answering the question or for debating its subject matter. See also the help center article on the commenting privilege. – Philipp Sep 28 '22 at 12:59
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1This question has several answers that say "because the German people don't support it," but that seems to me kind of trivially circular--"Germany [the state] opposes nuclear power because Germany [the collective citizenry] opposes nuclear power," and then the interesting thing would be why public sentiment is what it is. @JonathanReez could you clarify--did you mean specifically the government, or are you also asking about the reasons for anti-nuclear sentiment in German public opinion/popular discourse? – Tiercelet Sep 29 '22 at 20:59
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2@Tiercelet I'm interested in German arguments based on nuclear engineering facts rather than emotions, if any such facts exist – JonathanReez Sep 29 '22 at 21:04
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7@JonathanReez "I'm interested in German arguments based on nuclear engineering facts" This is a politics site where you get arguments based on politics. These can be supported by engineering facts but will also include how you weigh these facts, which necessarily includes value judgements. (How much danger is acceptable? How much money are you willing to spend? What even are your goals?) While engineering can be used to achieve goals, it can not be used to establish them, because the latter ultimately does come down to values and emotions. – xyldke Sep 30 '22 at 07:50
11 Answers
Because the majority of the electorate is opposed to nuclear power.
In particular, Green and Social Democrat voters are against it. Thus, the current coalition (of Social Democrats, Greens and Liberal Democrats) cannot change its position on nuclear power. The current crisis didn't change the main concerns against nuclear power and, since building new plants would be very costly and time-consuming, that isn't considered to be a solution to the short-term issue. There is also political consensus that there are better long-term solutions than nuclear power.
Image from above link translated by Yandex translate.
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3"Better long term solution" for the people who are going to survive this winter. Long term solution is no good for the dead. – stackoverblown Sep 30 '22 at 12:54
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2Here in germany, we have quite a lot of people stuck in "dogmatic argumentation" - the "green faction" of the parliament are the successors of old environmental protestors from the 60s - where nuclear power plants where framed as the pure evil. This is a farce since that means further use of coal power plants to produce enough energy, or importing nuclear power from france. You gotta love the irony in that. Hopefully, nuclear fusion reactors achieve a major breakthrough until 2035 - but even then, fusion reactors have some form of nuclear waste - and the argument starts anew – clockw0rk Sep 30 '22 at 13:00
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@PatrickT What is your point w.r.t. Russia? Half of EU nuclear fuels are from Russia and those are apparently not easily replaceable by other sources. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 13:17
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1@clockw0rk There is no chance that nuclear fusion will help us avert catastrophic climate change. Even if there is a breakthrough, it will simply come too late to help us there. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 13:18
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@gerrit I wouldn't be too sure about that - latest news state that fusion reactors could be shrunk down the size of a pickup and could have simplified plasma field forms. I need to dig into that again , thanks. Even if it may come late, it could nevertheless be a usefull tool, and be it only to reduce the amount of ressources needed for "reusable" energy – clockw0rk Sep 30 '22 at 13:26
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1You mentioned a consensus on better long term solutions. What would those be? – greduan Sep 30 '22 at 13:32
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1@greduan Renewables + storage, see, for example, Traber et. al, 2030. Germany can not (can no longer) meet its legal requirements to cut GHG emissions in-time with nuclear. Had they started building plants 10–20 years ago, it could have worked. Now, it's too late. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 13:54
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2@clockw0rk Well, maybe. I was basing my prediction on the ITER-style plants, which are huge, and even in the best case it will take decades before any deliver electricity to the grid commercially. It also remains to be seen what the LCOE will be. I wouldn't bet on it being a major player in the 21st century or perhaps ever (but the science and engineering is awesome and should certainly continue). – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 13:57
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@gerrit but those have yet unsolved issues, do they not? Particularly in the storage department. So are they really more sustainable than making nuclear plant production more streamlined (3-5 years instead of 20 lol, the amount of regulations surrounding it are ridiculously abundant afaik). – greduan Oct 17 '22 at 15:18
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@greduan No, renewables do not have unresolved issues. We have the technology to go fully sustainable — we just need to do it. The linked study shows a target system of generation, conversion, and storage technologies that can achieve the transformation to 100% renewable energy in all energy sectors—electricity, heat, and mobility—in time and at competitive costs below the costs of the current system.. OTOH, Germany cannot build a nuclear plant in 3–5 years; recent European plants have rather taken much longer than planned. – gerrit Oct 17 '22 at 15:54
That would be the 4th u-turn in German nuclear energy policy. The other 3 were.
- 2000, when the SPD/Greens coalition government under Gerhard Schröder decided the "Atomausstieg". To phase out nuclear power by 2020.
- 2010, when the CDU/FDP government under Angela Merkel decided to increase the time the existing nuclear powerplants could run ("Atomausstiegausstieg")
- 2011, when the Fukushima Daiichi power plant had a meltdown, and the same government decided that nuclear power should be phased out rather sooner than later. They decided that the last nuclear power plants should go offline in late 2022. ("Atomausstiegausstiegausstieg")
And here we are, in 2022, with the energy crisis caused by the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. Most nuclear power plants in Germany are already offline or in the process of being taken offline. And so is all the infrastructure required for operating them. Reactivating them would be a huge financial investment, if possible at all. And yet there are plans to do exactly this with at least two nuclear power plants. Isar 2 and Neckarwestheim are supposed to stay online at least until early 2023 (German source).
Why not build new nuclear power plants? The problem is that nuclear power capacity isn't something you can just create out of thin air. Building a new nuclear power plant is a huge project that takes at least a decade of planning and execution. If Germany decided to build new nuclear power plants today, they probably wouldn't go online until the mid 2030s. The geopolitical and energy situation could look completely different then.
However, Germany, or rather the EU in general, already has a strategy in place to replace fossil fuels. The plan is for the EU to become climate-neutral by 2050. The lack of fossil fuels from Russia has only increased the pressure to execute this plan rather sooner than later. This plan does not include increased production of nuclear power. Why? Because nuclear power is one of the most expensive forms of energy. It's just not economically competitive with wind and solar, in combination with hydropower, biofuel and green hydrogen for compensating peak loads or times of Dunkelflaute ("dark lull", when there is neither wind nor sun).
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8Calling all these decisions U-turns is a bit of an exaggeration. “Atomausstieg” was a cornerstone of the Greens' programme in the 90s, so it couldn't really be a surprise that the phase out would be decided after they got into government 1998, and at 20 years ahead this did have enough time to plan it out. Somewhat similar for 2010. Fukushima did prompt a U-turn under a conservative government, and right now for a government with Greens (much bigger than they were in 1998) extending is again a decision they don't like to make. – leftaroundabout Sep 29 '22 at 09:12
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41Ad "Nuclear is one of the most expesinve forms of energy": On the linked wikipedia page, the cost per kWh seems to be near the cheapest except hydro. One study found it to be very expensive, but did not disclose how it got these numbers. And even that study found that prolonging the operations of existing nuclear power plants is the cheapest (granted, it didn't investigate hydro power).
Also, solar and wind require electricity storage which seems to not be priced in.
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11@Tomeamis the amount of false statements about nuclear is significant even in the answers to this very question. It seems like everyone answering are taking the governments official beliefs at face value. – JonathanReez Sep 29 '22 at 14:06
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3@Tomeamis See our world in data for some data on the cost of nuclear power and renewables. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 07:49
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Concur with @leftroundabout -- those aren't U-turns, those are schedule changes in response to changing circumstances. This is how long-term planning works. – Shadur-don't-feed-the-AI Sep 30 '22 at 10:26
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@Tomeamis except Nuclear power isn't the cheapest in germany - simply because the energy is produced in france and imported here, Mainly because the mid and southern regions needed some form of energy compensation for their MASSIVE gain in energy needs - something the net could not deliver (usually energy flew from the northern sea downwards). [ I worked at a major german energy company ] – clockw0rk Sep 30 '22 at 13:05
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The EU does have a strategy, but cheap natural gas was a big part of that strategy. It is the transition fuel to be used to compensate for renewable intermittency until storage technology catches up and is built in sufficient quantities. It's kind of like how a heroin addict will use methadone to help them get clean. Without that natural gas, Europe, Germany in particular, faces having to go "cold turkey" which is more likely to result in either a desperate return to dirtier fossil fuels like coal and oil or a severe economic downturn due to energy rationing. – Crazymoomin Sep 30 '22 at 13:24
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@gerrit Interesting article, thanks. One issue I have with it is that the source for nuclear costs is the Lazard study also mentioned on the Wikipedia page, which notes that the study hasn't published its methodology and the number is abotu 2.5 times higher than the other studies mentioning nuclear in the same table (One is from the OECD NEA, just in case). – Tomeamis Sep 30 '22 at 15:21
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@clockw0rk Interesting insight, thank you. But if I understood your comment correctly, it's expensive because it's imported. So if it was produced locally, many of the problems you mentioned would disappear. – Tomeamis Sep 30 '22 at 15:24
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@Tomeamis I'm not so sure about that. Sure, it would be cheaper, I guess. What I'm not sure about is whether the already existent nuclear powerplants have the capacity and are enough to feed the energy needs. Ultimately there would have new powerplants to be build, which I think would cost more than it's worth. ( I'm no minister, I don't know the exact numbers in cost, but an educated guess tells me the german nuclear plants already existing and from the stone-age are never enough to feed the consumption needs as in 2022 ). I hope this is an at least somewhat statisfying respond – clockw0rk Oct 07 '22 at 10:16
Because the energy crisis is a temporary issue and it doesn't change any of the issues they have with nuclear power. There are many issues with nuclear power around the disposal and storage of the various waste products and spent fuel from the plant. Those issues are still present regardless of there being an energy crisis and will still be present after the crisis is over. There is also the issue that building a new nuclear power plant takes time and won't likely be complete until after the crisis.
In short nothing about nuclear power has changed because of this to make them want to build new plants.
Edit:
In fact the current situation could be causing more people to oppose nuclear power due to the risks being faced in Ukraine. Currently there is a lot of concern around several plants and damage being caused by the conflict that could cause damage to the area and nearby countries. While you will likely brush this off as misguided and the least of Ukraine's problems that is not how other countries see it.
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7The concerns surrounding effects of the war on nuclear plants in Ukraine are very real, but I'm not sure how that affects building nuclear plants in Germany. Is there actual concern that someone would invade Germany? – reirab Sep 28 '22 at 20:30
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4@reirab War is not the only reason accidents can happen to a nuclear plant as various terrorist attacks around the world over the years have repeatedly shown. How the damage doesn't matter but the impact of that damage after the fact. – Joe W Sep 28 '22 at 20:32
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6True, but guarding a nuclear plant against terrorist attacks is much easier than guarding one against a land invasion by one of the world's largest armies with lots of tanks and artillery. Even with a dam, protection against a terrorist attack is a serious threat that must be mitigated, but it's a on a completely different level than actual invasion by a major military power. – reirab Sep 28 '22 at 20:55
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3@reirab That doesn't change or remove the concerns that people have about a plant being damaged and the fallout from that damage. – Joe W Sep 28 '22 at 21:02
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11@reirab: It doesn't matter how real or unreal the concerns are. It matters whether or not people have those concerns. Germany is a democracy, so if enough voters have concerns, it's not gonna happen. In particular, the two big partners in the current government coalition both have been running on an anti-nuclear platform for decades, and their voter base is staunchly anti-nuclear. In fact, one of the two parties is a political outgrowth of the anti-nuclear movement. – Jörg W Mittag Sep 28 '22 at 23:40
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1@JörgWMittag True. And that's interesting to know about the anti-nuclear views of the political parties. Thanks for providing the additional background there. At least here in the U.S., nuclear power production doesn't seem to be an issue that any of the parties take a particularly strong stance on either way. – reirab Sep 29 '22 at 03:31
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@reirab fyi: "The Green Party advocates the phase-out of nuclear [...] power plants. All processes associated with nuclear power are dangerous [...]
The generation of nuclear waste must be halted. [...] Cost is another huge factor making it unfeasible [...]
The Green Party calls for a formal moratorium on the construction of new nuclear power plants, the early retirement of existing nuclear power reactors [...]
– Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 05:33 -
1@Peter-ReinstateMonica Ah, I guess I should have known for the Greens. As the 4th-place party in what is effectively a 2-party system, though, their influence is virtually nothing other than being a way for Democrats who don't like their candidate to cast a protest vote. They got about a quarter of a percent of the votes in the 2020 Presidential election, for example, and hold no seats in Congress. – reirab Sep 29 '22 at 06:20
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1"Because the energy crisis is a temporary issue". I LOLed. Good to know that climate change and our complete dependence on fossil fuels will soon be solved once and for all! – Eric Duminil Sep 29 '22 at 07:35
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@reirab People do take a strong stance on the storage of nuclear waste and spent fuel which is why you don't see much work on new plants in the US. – Joe W Sep 29 '22 at 12:14
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@EricDuminil This situation being temporary has nothing to do with the dependence on fossil fuels and is more of a matter of working to get new sources of energy after becoming overdependent on a single source and losing it. – Joe W Sep 29 '22 at 12:16
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1@JoeW: Yes. And to get "new sources of energy", we'll either get fossil fuels from other rogue states, or LNG from the US. After a while, we'll notice we're still burning billions of € away, and still did nothing against climate change. This energy crisis is not temporary at all. It's just the beginning of growing problems. https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/peak-ff-oil.png – Eric Duminil Sep 29 '22 at 12:31
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@EricDuminil I never said it would switch from fossil fuels to other things and there are other countries that can start suppling fuel besides Russia. If you are really suggesting that losing Russia as a fuel supplier is causing that big of a problem then Europe has a much larger problem on their hands then anyone can understand. – Joe W Sep 29 '22 at 12:37
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"Is there actual concern that someone would invade Germany?" @reirab, On a months or even years basis, Germany seems pretty secure. But every country maintains some level of concern for its own security, especially on the decades scale considered for planning a nuclear plant. Even without picking on currently popular boogeymen, it took just 72 years from the start of George Washington's presidency to the US civil war. Is a similar EU civil war impossible? Even if it's just 10% probable in the next 50 years that recent friends become enemies, that can shift the calculation. – Josiah Sep 30 '22 at 07:26
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1@JoeW: "Europe has a much larger problem on their hands then anyone can understand". Precisely my point. And not just Europe, BTW. – Eric Duminil Sep 30 '22 at 07:37
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@EricDuminil You took what I said out of context which was if losing a single suppler is that major of a problem which I argue that it is a temporary one that will be overcome. – Joe W Sep 30 '22 at 12:18
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1@reirab: Oh, all right. Sorry then. I must have become confused with the various comments above, assuming you are referring to the party system in Germany. Comment removed. – O. R. Mapper Oct 01 '22 at 05:53
The groups fighting against nuclear power plants in the 1970s were the core political movement from which the German Green party emerged. This is why the Greens cannot turn pro nuclear without ending their existence as a party. Even the currently proposed lifetime extension, very moderate in time and extent, is a perilous endeavor for Robert Habeck, the responsible Green minister, and may well explode the current government if the Green base balks — one of the political principles of the Greens is a more direct democracy, also in their own party, so there may be a party vote about contentious issues like this one.
Anything beyond this very limited life time extension of existing power plants is entirely unthinkable with the current government.
It is important to realize the increased political clout the Green party has gained in recent years. They are likely to be junior partners of middle-left and middle-right governments alike because the left and right fringe parties are unacceptable by the major parties as coalition partners.
Additionally, the two big parties are losing voters. Especially the traditional Social Democratic Party is becoming increasingly obsolete due to ongoing tectonic shifts in labor, and in society in general. The Greens are now an integral, important part of the moderate left in Germany; perhaps they are the moderate left's future, given how important ecological problems have become. They have much more power than they used to have even as recently as ten years ago.
Therefore the Greens will likely be in a position to block a nuclear renaissance in the foreseeable future.
And then there is, of course, the fact that what's left of nuclear power isn't that important any longer in the German energy mix. It may be important enough to let the plants run through the coming winter, a last hooray, and then good riddance.
Because, like you all do, I'm seeing a lot of Youtube videos featuring new, improved nuclear power plant designs which would solve our energy problems. It is all baloney. New plants take decades to build in Europe, only a crazyman would gamble the energy future of his country, his region or his world on unproven new designs, they are crazy expensive, and you are still dependent on imports. And that is before you even contemplate the probabilities of a core meltdown in the most populous regions of Europe and try to find a nice backyard for the waste, risking riots wherever you turn to.
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3Re "you are still dependent on imports from places like Kazakhstan and Namibia" Is this strictly true, or only true in a political sense? After all, between 1947 and 1990 (East-)Germany supplied much of the Soviet demand for uranium, so it is reasonable to assume that Germany could supply much of the fissile material for nuclear power plants itself, and that it is just politically inopportune to take up the mining of uranium ore in the country once again. – njuffa Sep 29 '22 at 09:53
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@njuffa Good questions. The mining operation has been closed down and cleaned up and rehabilitated for billions of dollars. The shafts are flooded, etc. In the "socialist" times worker and resident protection was close to non-existent (no dust protection for the workers: 40,000 sick, uncovered spoil heaps next to residential buildings, H2SO4 pumped underground to dissolve the ore -- still seeps out out of the ground and must be treated 30 years later). Uranium mining is environmentally terrible, too. I don't think it would be economically or politically feasible to re-open the mines. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 11:39
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2@Peter-ReinstateMonica If environmental regulations were significantly reduced there’s no law of physics stopping Germany from resuming the mining of uranium at a reasonable price per ton. It’s a self imposed constraint. – JonathanReez Sep 29 '22 at 14:14
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3@JonathanReez Why should Uranium mining be profitable in Germany when no other mining is? The only reason to keep it up would be strategic resource independence, which was the reason to keep coal mining alive for decades at a cost that would have made every miner a millionaire. I admit that doesn't sound as paranoid as it did 10 months ago, but it's still not profitable. And yes, of course you can turn Germany into an environmental shithole and kill or disable another 40,000 workers but only over my dead body. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 14:29
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3D/V: This is a VERY opinionated answer with no sources to support. Also, just because someone else doesn't have the same beliefs as you doesn't make them a "crazyman" and ALL forms of electricity generation are "crazy expensive" upon startup, or you truly have a different definitioin of crazy and expensive. – CGCampbell Sep 29 '22 at 15:35
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Why is it problematic to be dependent on uranium from a stable democracy like Namibia? And both Canada and Australia are larger uranium producers than Namibia. – prosfilaes Sep 29 '22 at 16:15
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2@CGCampbell "Crazy expensive" means about 4 times as expensive (at least twice as expensive, at most 9.5 times); see https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/887090/1867659c1d4edcc0e32cb093ab073767/WD-5-005-22-pdf-data.pdf, fig. 8, p. 28. Consider also that the price for most energy sources is essentially long-term flat because the technology is mature (except for market oscillations); but the price for the young renewables still continues to fall, with no end in sight. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 18:57
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@CGCampbell I added two sources for "decades" and "expensive". The 80-100 months median time is a global number; China us probably faster, which leaves the "decades" term valid, I think. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 19:02
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@CGCampbell when you say “ALL forms of electricity generation are ‘crazy expensive’ upon startup”, do you want to suggest that after 70 years, generating electricity from nuclear energy is still “upon startup”? How many centuries shall we wait before it becomes affordable? – Holger Sep 30 '22 at 07:34
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1Not only is nuclear power very expensive, it also gets more expensive whereas other sources are getting cheaper. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 07:56
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@gerrit it’s getting more expensive because of red tape. If you roll back the rules to how they were in 1985 nuclear would be cheap once again. It’s not a fair comparison. – JonathanReez Sep 30 '22 at 12:24
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1@JonathanReez Nuclear wasn't cheap in 1985; no nuclear power has ever been funded commercially; often public investments were at least in part motivated by weaponisation (hence no thorium). Deregulation might reduce cost (and increase public opposition). There are good reasons why the industry is well-regulated. Other reasons include the diseconomy of scale inherent with large projects, and the new technologies involved in new plants. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 12:30
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@Peter-ReinstateMonica: I'd be willing to bet that much better worker health, accident and environmental protection would be possible (and feasible) than what the SDAG (Soviet-German Corporation) Wismut https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wismut_(Unternehmen) used to provide (it was 50 : 50 owned by SU and GDR, more precisely: there were contracts that GDR had to buy a 50 % share from SU)... but: – cbeleites unhappy with SX Oct 01 '22 at 11:12
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@njuffa: The ore mountains used to have large deposits with also very high U-concentration (initially around 1900, when Uranium was first produced, ores with < 20 % were put aside). But by the end of the 1980s, the Wismut SDAG started to close first sites because they were basically exploited. Notably, the Gera/Ronneburg deposit which was the largest uranium deposit of Europe, was marked for shutting down. Then the wall fell, and everything was shut down and environmental clean-up started. Nevertheless, I don't think there is any doubt that the remaining deposits are not very attractive... – cbeleites unhappy with SX Oct 01 '22 at 11:20
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... for reopening mining (in contrast, there have been exploration activities for other ores, but AFAIK, no successful mining operations started). OTOH, I'd like to point out that in terms of uranium mining/production "other places like Namibia or Kazakhstan" also include places like Australia and Canada. – cbeleites unhappy with SX Oct 01 '22 at 11:28
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@CGCampbell Re "just because someone else doesn't have the same beliefs as you doesn't make them a "crazyman": Of course not. But this general statement -- rely on an unproven technology, like new nuclear power plant designs, for your country's future when proven, viable, affordable alternatives are available -- seems crazy to me. It's not about nuclear energy (about which we may have different opinions), it's about the principle (about which we shouldn't) – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 14 '22 at 00:33
There are several good reasons not to do so:
- It would not help in the current crisis. If you start building new Nuclear Power Plants now, it would take years until they work.
- Power Plants just postpone the problem to the future. Almost no one has an idea what to do with the nuclear waste. It will take millenia until the waste is gone. Taking into account what happened during the past only 200 years, it would be insane to think a chosen place will be untouched by humans, other beings and natural disasters for the next 10000 years.
- Uranium is not infinite.
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7"Almost no one has an idea what to do with the nuclear waste." That's not true. There is a standard process for disposal of nuclear waste that has been in place for decades, and there is ongoing research into ways of re-using or recycling of such material so that long-term storage is either no longer hazardous, or no longer necessary at all. – F1Krazy Sep 29 '22 at 06:58
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4Ongoing research may be successful, but it may also fail. To rely on the result of these researches is like doing nothing against the climate change because one day there will be some technology solving the problem or god will send one of his angels to restore the ecosystem. Who knows what the result of ongoing research will be? We cannot rely only on that. – Zero Sep 29 '22 at 08:45
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1@F1Krazy I think the point is that the decommissioning costs cannot be accurately assessed. Nuclear energy looks cheap until you add in the possible end-of-life costs of the reactors. France is laughing at the rest of Europe at the moment as they have the largest nuclear production. But who knows what their future costs will be. I have serious concerns that Britain seems set to follow the French road rather than the German. – WS2 Sep 29 '22 at 11:54
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7You don’t need to wait for any research. Spent fuel is not particularly hazardous and can be dumped into any mine and sealed with concrete. It’s only considered a problem because Green parties like to pretend as if it’s a big deal. – JonathanReez Sep 29 '22 at 14:09
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3Uranium is not infinite, but neither is anything else, including the materials used to make wind turbines. From a quick glance, it doesn't look that the supplies of available uranium are a serious limitation on nuclear power in the near future. – prosfilaes Sep 29 '22 at 16:12
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@F1Krazy the process you have linked, does not solve any problem with the nuclear waste. It’s just extracting a tiny part of it, material that can still be used for fission, at the price of producing even more waste. The nuclear waste still is just dumped somewhere. Yeah, there’s “ongoing research”…as you said, for decades – Holger Sep 30 '22 at 07:22
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@F1Krazy Hanford, La Hague and Sellafield -- the plants who implement your standard process -- are among the prime reasons the Greens are opposed to nuclear power :-). When Bavaria wanted to build their own version they had to fortify it like a medieval castle and had civil war like riots there. It's perhaps not entirely rational -- why are there no riots at coal power plants!? Although that may still happen -- but this is a Politics SE, after all, not Ratio SE. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 30 '22 at 08:30
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@JonathanReez Dumping spent fuel into any mine and sealing it with concrete? And the greens are only exaggerating? Some parts of the waste may be stored like this, but there is also some waste which can definitely not be "stored" in such a way. During the next 10000 years, there may come an earthquake which releases the waste, leading to a complete radiation and pollution of the environment. Or people somehow forget over time there is radioactive waste and for some reason one might not understand today, they will break the concrete seal. Who knows what might happen in the future? – Zero Oct 04 '22 at 05:47
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@Zero “complete radiation and pollution”? Even Chernobyl is perfectly livable these days because the worst isotopes have long decayed. Said earthquake might pollute a few hundred square meters with plutonium but it’s not a big deal. Radiation is far less dangerous than Green parties like to proclaim. – JonathanReez Oct 04 '22 at 05:52
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@JonathanReez As I said, we have no idea what future may change. If people forget about the waste, maybe they are even building a city of Frankfurt's size in that place. I doubt it's still not a big deal then, if a whole city with more than 750000 inhabitants (or a part of it) gets caught by this. We should be really careful when postponing a problem into the future. – Zero Oct 04 '22 at 05:55
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@zero It’s a fantasy scenario that has a 1 in a million chance of happening, not something you should actually worry about. – JonathanReez Oct 04 '22 at 06:03
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@JonathanReez Well, 2000 years ago, it was probably also a fantasy scenario that humanity would actually develop weapons strong enough to destroy the world 10 times. During the colonial era, it was probably also a totally unbelievable scenario that Europe would lose its role as dominating force in the world. And 500 years ago, the it was 0% possible that creationism is wrong or that something like the dinosaurs could have even existed. – Zero Oct 04 '22 at 06:22
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@Zero I fail to see how thats relevant. Nuclear waste is a solved problem, end of story. – JonathanReez Oct 04 '22 at 15:03
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@JonathanReez: The things Zero describes were things that, at the times mentioned were "Solved problems", to a similar extent. – Alexander The 1st Oct 10 '22 at 08:25
keeping the nuclear power plants permanently active in addition to building new ones
Nuclear power is not seen as a good solution for providing electric energy in Germany. And indeed it may not be. Just look at France who depends on nuclear power much more and had quite some problems this summer (French Nuclear Power Crisis Frustrates Europe’s Push to Quit Russian Energy). So building new power plants, especially with the planned further increase of renewables doesn't make sense. Letting run nuclear power plants forever equally would collide with increased renewables. Nuclear power will very likely be phased out in Germany at some point.
The major concern currently is getting through the current crisis but that's expected to be a limited in time event. The government increased the running time of some nuclear power plants to next year spring, but then maybe they will increase the running time again. Nobody knows.
I think that the government sees nuclear power plants as an insurance but as for an insurance you only want to pay for it as short a duration as possible.
Indeed there is no shortage of electric energy in Germany right now, electric energy production is covering consumption. Prices are very high but that is a peculiarity of the energy market and how it is regulated where the last (marginal) produced unit of energy has a great influence on the price. Nuclear power plants aren't good at providing peak electric energy packets.
Germany wanted to phase out nuclear power by 2022 and coal power by 2038 only. Both, nuclear power plants and coal power plants should largely be written off and using both should provide similar economic sense. This may reflect that Germans do not care so much about CO2 compared to producing more nuclear waste or risking an nuclear accident in a power plant.
Indeed nuclear power polled badly in Germany over many years in the past. Only with increasing prices, Germans are changing their opinion a bit, but it's not clear if there would be a majority for it now and there isn't a majority within the government.
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There are two major aspects not yet listed: price, and duration. Germany cannot meet the legally binding requirement to stop emitting around ca. 2030 with nuclear power, and in any case nuclear power costs much more than renewables. Details below.
Nuclear is too expensive
Not only is nuclear power expensive: it is getting more expensive. Nuclear power is the only major source of electricity whose prices are increasing long-term (not considering market fluctuations for fossil-fuel based electricity). Already today, it is one of the most expensive sources of electricity:

Source: Our World in Data. Further sources in the linked article, which is thoroughly researched with 45 footnotes.
Reasons for this are a multitude, but in general, renewables profit from economy of scale, because solar panels or batteries can be mass produced. Nuclear plants, in particular new ones, are highly complex and suffer from diseconomy of scale. After 70 years, nuclear power still relies on government subsidies, whereas subsidies for renewables are slowly being phased out because they're competitive on their own by now, despite fossil fuel subsidies still being in place. Perhaps nuclear power could become cheaper with deregulation, improved standardisation and a major effort to build many plants of the same type, but the data show no evidence for this happening.
Nuclear is too slow
Germany has signed the Paris Climate Agreement, where compliance with the 1.5 °C target requires an end to all greenhouse gas emissions by around 2030 (Traber et. al, 2021). This is 8 years away. Germany cannot build new nuclear power plants in 8 years. Therefore, new nuclear power plants cannot contribute to reaching net zero carbon in a legally required timescale.
Traber T, Hegner FS, Fell H-J. An Economically Viable 100% Renewable Energy System for All Energy Sectors of Germany in 2030. Energies. 2021; 14(17):5230. https://doi.org/10.3390/en14175230
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I'm interested in German arguments based on nuclear engineering facts rather than emotions, if any such facts exist
You won't find any. The discussion about nuclear power plants is 100% emotional in Germany. Nukes have been deemed uncool and unsafe for decades now, and you cannot expect to change this opinion with facts, such as global mortality rate by TWh:
Germany produced about 165TWh of electricity from lignite and coal in 2021, which will cause approximately 4000 deaths. This, incidentally, is also a plausible death count for the Chernobyl disaster.
As mentioned by other answers, it would take at least 10 or 15 years to build new nuclear power plants in Germany. The "nukes are unsafe" opinion would be a self-fulfilling prophecy: Germany has many excellent engineers, scientists and construction workers. But they would simply not be interested in working for the nuclear industry, and would rather design cars. Which, by the way, still kill 7 people every day, in Germany alone.
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2On a side note, and to hopefully avoid fruitless discussion: I'm not pro-nuclear. I'm simply more anti-coal than anti-nuclear. IMHO, we should first reduce our energy consumption by a lot. No planes, fewer cars, smaller cars, less meat, less air-conditioning, fewer useless gadgets, more regional and seasonal food. Once that happens, it becomes easier to cover our energy demand with renewables, as much as possible. What's left can then be covered by some fossil fuels and some nukes, with a percentage depending on many factors, but not emotional ones. – Eric Duminil Sep 30 '22 at 08:16
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2I'm sure there's a question that's answered here, but not the question asked in the post. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 12:12
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@gerrit: Thanks for the comment. OP wasn't pleased with the existing answers, and added the comment to the question : "I'm interested in German arguments based on nuclear engineering facts rather than emotions, if any such facts exist". – Eric Duminil Sep 30 '22 at 12:16
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Does cost count as a nuclear engineering fact? The cost is certainly related. I like how our answers use the same source, but come to quite different conclusions. OP has an opinion on nuclear power and I'm not sure what answer the OP is actually looking for, if any. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 12:17
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@gerrit: Interesting indeed. Not every kWh is created equal (baseload vs peakload, intermittent or not, ...) though, so it's not enough to compare € / kWh for different energy sources. And if every externality were accounted for, fossil fuels would all be much more expensive than other sources. It's great to see a lot of PV and wind turbines installed everywhere in Europe. Still, when people say "Nein, danke" to nukes, they implicitly say "Ja, bitte" to coal. – Eric Duminil Sep 30 '22 at 12:30
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1Oh yes, fossil fuels are the worst. The mainstream political debate is about investing in nuclear or in renewables. Considering trends in costs for nuclear, renewables, and storage, I don't think nuclear plants built today will ever be economically competitive. It's true that € / kWh is an oversimplification; the real electricity market is complex. The engineering question is "is 100% renewable feasible when we include storage and an improved grid" (for Germany), but we are on the politics not the engineering stack exchange. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 12:38
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1For more on the engineering side of things, see Traber, T.; Hegner, F.S.; Fell, H.-J. An Economically Viable 100% Renewable Energy System for All Energy Sectors of Germany in 2030. Energies 2021, 14, 5230. https://doi.org/10.3390/en14175230 . – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 12:44
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@gerrit: Thanks for the link. "fossil fuels are the worst". Well, yes. But they're also the foundation of our modern societies. Sadly, we still do not know how to feed/transport/heat/educate billions of people without oil/gas/coal. :-/ Note that "100% renewable" is not only feasible, but a certainty in the long-term, by definition. – Eric Duminil Sep 30 '22 at 12:51
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1Solar looks unbelievably safe. It's notorious for killing people who fall during installation. And since the production per roof is rather low, this does end up as a rather high fatality rate per TWh. Large-scale solar is much safer, though. – MSalters Oct 03 '22 at 08:00
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@MSalters and that's probably your answer. Large solar parks now reach 2GWp, and will produce a large portion of the aforementioned terawatthours. If the large solar parks are safe, pv will be safe on average, even if it's still possible to die while installing 3kWp on a roof. – Eric Duminil Oct 03 '22 at 09:03
The problem isn't the total electric power available, but network stability.
What the German grid lacks is supply that can react quickly to changes in demand, because there is no way to dump excess energy. The existing nuclear power plants are old and cannot be run efficiently in load-following mode -- trying to do so would at the same time decrease revenue for the operator and increase thermal stresses from frequent power changes.
Due to the way electrical energy is traded on the market, priority must be given to nuclear power while it is available. Wind and solar generators are required to have feedback mechanisms to disable them when there is oversupply in the network, which is still too slow as a frequency regulation mechanism, but a lot more flexible than nuclear plants.
So, while the nuclear plants are running, more gas is required to compensate for the lack of medium-term regulation on nuclear plants.
The existing plants are kept mostly as backup for the steel and aluminium industries. It is doubtful they will be needed, but the government is playing it safe here.
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4Can you add some links to backup your statements, ideally written by a nuclear engineer or someone else with corresponding credentials? – JonathanReez Sep 29 '22 at 14:10
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5I wonder how is France with their 70% nuclear power do the dump excess energy thing. Are their reactors running in load-following mode? Or are they also using gas for the balancing? – NoDataDumpNoContribution Sep 29 '22 at 15:54
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1@Trilarion, yes, France has been building reactors that can do load following more efficiently. It's not technically impossible, just needs to be part of the specification when building the plant in the first place (Germany's remaining plants are forty years old and were designed around the needs of the steel industry), and you need economic incentives, in the form of appropriate marketplace rules or subsidies, for operating in load following mode. France is also considering nationalizing its nuclear power generation as the operators are losing money. – Simon Richter Sep 29 '22 at 17:26
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@Trilarion France is connected to another big country that uses a lot of gas turbines. – Reasonably Against Genocide Sep 29 '22 at 18:52
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4As JonathanReez points out, some supporting links would make this a much better Stack Exchange answer post. Otherwise, can readers know if you're just making this up or not? – uhoh Sep 29 '22 at 23:24
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@uhoh Readers must always double check. Every post here could be made up and only the smallest number of posts is backed up with sufficient citations. Almost all posts would profit from more links, not only this one. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Sep 30 '22 at 07:00
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2@Trilarion posts which cite authoritative sources are a lot easier to check than those without, which is why it's generally understood that Stack Exchange answers should support their assertions by citing sources where they can be verified. – uhoh Sep 30 '22 at 07:27
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Although this post agrees with what I have read in the German press, I don't think it's the primary reason why the German electorate opposes nuclear power. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 07:54
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@uhoh "Stack Exchange answers should support their assertions" Yes they should but in practice they very often don't. That's what I wanted to add here. Your comment is valid but would also be valid almost everywhere else too. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Sep 30 '22 at 11:27
As pointed out in the other answers, going for nuclear energy requires a long term commitment. On the long term, the main issue to deal with is climate change. For nuclear energy to be relevant to deal with climate change, it has to be used on a large scale. This requires the use of fast breeder reactors, or else we'll run out of U-235 within a century.
Europe and the the US have both stopped developing fast breeder reactors since the 1990s. It would take a long time to build up the infrastructure needed for fast breeder reactors. Only Russia is currently using a large fast breeder reactors for electricity generation. We can e.g. read here:
With energy prices spiking thanks to Russia’s war in Ukraine, and with the growing public cry to move toward sources of energy that don’t emit planet-warming greenhouse gases, nuclear power is getting another look. At the same time, innovators are looking at redesigning fast reactor technology to make it more cost-effective, Gehin said.
Currently, Russia is the only country producing electricity with fast reactor technology. India and China have plans to build out commercial fast reactors in the future. ............
Before nuclear waste can be used to power fast reactors, it has to go through reprocessing. Right now, only Russia has the capacity to do this at scale. France, too, has the capacity to recycle used nuclear waste, Gehin said, but the country generally takes its recycled fuel and puts it back into existing light water reactors.
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1And additionally this "fast breeder" technology would have to be totally safe and there needs to be a strategy for dealing with nuclear waste (how much ever there is and over how long ever it will be). Wind/solar/geothermal looks much more promising right now. I would actually like to see geothermal energy being developed much more. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Sep 30 '22 at 06:45
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2@Trilarion: The "fast breeder" reactors work by taking the nuclear waste, and separating the generated Plutonium for reuse. It's this Plutonium which makes the waste radioactive for ~40.000 years, so reusing it goes a long way. Also, this Plutonium comes from the non-fissile U-238, so that doesn't end up in the waste either. It's not perfect, you still have the fission products themselves, like Iodine. But those are much less of an issue. – MSalters Oct 03 '22 at 08:06
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@MSalters Sounds quite good. Question is if there are any other drawbacks or why this technology isn't that widely adopted. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Oct 03 '22 at 11:11
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@Trilarion: The radioactive waste you're refining is obviously radioactive, so you want to use robots, not humans. But 1970's robot technology was rather primitive. By 2000, we had the robot capability, but by then we had stopped building nuclear plants. Also, the time scale involved is quite unfamiliar: we might be able to recycle the waste 50 to a 100 times, with 15 to 25 year cycles. That's a time scale which starts at 7 centuries. And finally, why recycle when new fuel is virtually free? In 1990, the West bought a lot of Plutonium from Russian nuclear arms stocks. – MSalters Oct 03 '22 at 12:13
Oil and gas industry earns lots of money and have been used some to manipulate the thinking of the society. After the long years of demonizing the nuclear energy there is still inertia in thinking. Wind turbines (they are apex predators!) and biofuels (they are the root cause of the world hunger!) also took they hit.
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5I would suggest that biofuels are not the root cause of world hunger as there are other things causing food prices to increase such as not using all the available land in an order to keep supply and prices at desired levels. – Joe W Sep 28 '22 at 12:52
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11@JoeW OP was implying some other industries are demonizing nuclear energy, just as they demonize wind or biofuel energy. Which is subject to debate, but at least he doesn't imply biofuel is causing world hunger. – Kaël Sep 28 '22 at 15:50
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4@JoeW "Root cause" is a debatable term but one thing is clear: Turning corn into fuel pits the car drivers against the corn eaters. American drivers pay pretty much any price for fuel because you cannot exist there without driving, and they have the money. You cannot exist without food either, but the corn eaters don't have enough money and are easily priced out by the car drivers. "There is no lack of food -- there is a lack of money to buy food." (Amartya Sen) Even a few percent less supply can cause large price increases when the demand is so inelastic. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 05:22
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3@JoeW The root causes for famines, as also Sen correctly analyzed, are poverty and bad governance, in particular armed conflicts as the worst case. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 05:24
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1I tried to show that all alternative energy sources were demonized. Plus global warming itself was denied. This must change now. Oil and gas are as bad as the rest if not worse, – Stančikas Sep 29 '22 at 05:27
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@Peter-ReinstateMonica Sure it isn't something that helps the situation but it is not the root cause as there is lots of land that doesn't get used in order to help keep prices stable. – Joe W Sep 29 '22 at 12:12
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1@JoeW That's just not correct. The overall global food production is more than sufficient. It's the income inequality that causes famines, whose worst manifestations arise from armed conflicts and failed governments. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Sep 29 '22 at 12:52
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@Peter-ReinstateMonica And I am not saying the food production isn't sufficient but it is the price controls that keep prices higher to help farmers that are not related to biofuel that are the problem. – Joe W Sep 29 '22 at 13:01
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1@JoeW Humans are using something like 50% of all farm-able land on Earth, for farming. Would you recommend increasing that to 100% to solve world hunger? (what when the population goes up another billion?) – Reasonably Against Genocide Sep 29 '22 at 18:53
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You can make biofuels from seaweed, the US severely overproduces corn, and cars don't need biofuels anyway as they can be electric (we may need biofuels for ships and planes, though). – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 08:13
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1I misread this answer at first. With the parenthetical remarks you don't mean that you believe this, but that this was the gist of some of the anti-renewable propaganda? You might want to change your formulation to avoid confusion. – gerrit Sep 30 '22 at 13:14

