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I have seen the declarations like "For Russia this conflict is about preservation not only of its elites, but the country itself". It looks that there are people who think that Russia can be destroyed completely as a country if Ukraine wins.

How do they envision this? Ukraine has a population of 44.13 million while Russia has 144.1 million. The demographic proportions are likely comparable. Are they really afraid of Ukraine advancing towards Moscow, Saint Petersburg, etc., and taking them? Or do they think this may happen some other way?

the gods from engineering
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Stančikas
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    Political rhetoric does not need to be based in any fact. – Bryan Krause Jul 20 '22 at 20:50
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    I always understood the situation to be primarily a question of Russia's confidence and ability to successfully handle Western-backed forces on its doorstep. States can collapse not only because boots trample their soil, but also because internal forces are unleashed which prove uncontrollable. Nobody seriously suggests Ukraine can take over Russia. The question is can the West deprive Russia of control over Ukraine or not. – Steve Jul 23 '22 at 19:37
  • I still believe my answer to this question was adequate and deleted out of cognitive dissonance. Still, in 2024 it seems that 1917 sitiuation became less likely. – alamar Feb 28 '24 at 18:50

6 Answers6

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What is Russia?

There are the Russian people. A common language, a common history, historically a common religion. They have a sense of being "a people" and of being the core of the Russian nation.

Then there is the Russian nation. The society considers itself as a successor

The Russian Empire saw itself as the rightful overlord of various Russian and non-Russian people. Three of those formed the core: what is today called Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine, the main East Slavic countries. Others were less firmly anchored to the Empire, e.g. Finland, the Baltics, Poland, the Caucasus, Central Asia. To most Russians, the loss of Poland is old history, an old scar. The loss of Belarus and Ukraine is an open sore, which puts into question what being Russian means.

If Russian society accepts that Ukraine (and also Belarus) are their own nations, some of them might think that a process has started with no clear end state. If one province can break away, where does it end? The Kremlin ruling over Muscovy only?

This is not what all Russians think. But enough of them think so to make it a powerful political factor.

The Russian Federation is a multi-ethnic state with a majority ethnic group which dominates the rest. That creates tensions which make "Russia" more brittle. It would be survivable for Russia if e.g. Chechnya or Dagestan were to go their separate ways. But if Belarus and Ukraine, which are not now part of the Russia, were to maintain their independence, that would expose those faultlines. In that sense, an independent Ukraine is a threat to Russia by being independent, and even more so if Ukraine is democratic and Russians get to compare that with their own situation.

So Ukraine cannot physically destroy Russia. But it could morally destroy the sense of Russian national unity and legitimacy, by making it plain that that there is more than one possible successor of the Kievan Rus. Imagine a hypothetical where the New England states left the United States. The rest would still be vastly more powerful, but it might be the first pebble of an avalanche.


Follow-Up: Users Trilarion asked for sources, if possible authoritative ones. The problem here is that this reasoning mixes Russian statements, facts on the grounds, and takes them to the logical conclusion.

  1. President Putin claims that Ukraine is part of Russia, not a distinct nation, and that what he calls the liberation of Ukraine is the historic duty of the Russian leadership. (I hope no citations are necessary. That's the "Russian sources" part of the reasoning.)
  2. Ukraine has resisted the Russian invasion much more strongly than Russia anticipated, even if Russia insists on calling it a special military operation which is going to plan. (Again, I hope that no citations are necessary for this. That's the "facts on the ground" part of the reasoning.)
  3. If Ukraine manages to defeat the Russian invasion, and even to re-take Crimea (which was not Ukrainian until 1954), then the Russian leadership has failed in their historical mission. This is a clear possibility. (That's the logical conclusion from the prior two statements.)
  4. This failure could well endanger the stability of the Russian Federation. (The weakest of the four statements. It draws on the fact that since Czarist times, Russia ruled over conquered minorities that do not quite feel Russian. Instability may or may not follow a Russian defeat, but the risk is certainly there.)

A Russian government source would confirm point 1, deny point 2, and likely refuse to speculate based on the combination of points 1 and 2.

o.m.
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  • Interesting answer, but is this really backed up by any sources? Has there been any Russian politician on record saying, Ukraine is destroying our sense of National unity? If so, it might be good to link to it. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Jul 21 '22 at 21:16
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    @wrod no worries. all answers here run the risk of being mistaken for the answerer's own opinions, because of the nature of the question. but it is an interesting question. – Italian Philosophers 4 Monica Jul 22 '22 at 00:11
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    @Trilarion, this is mostly based on a lecture followed by a Q&A session by a political scientists born in the Russian-leaning part of Ukraine, now emigrated to Germany. It was not recorded. – o.m. Jul 22 '22 at 04:38
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    @o.m. Ok. Do you remember this political scientist citing sources for his claims? If so, do you maybe remember some of these sources. If not, it's a bit like hearsay. At the very least the name of the political scientist might be interesting, so we can ask him/her if there are further questions. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Jul 22 '22 at 11:07
  • @Trilarion: Honestly these claims don't seem terribly controversial to me. You can find them repeated in numerous analyses by Western thinkers. Even Putin would accept them to a large degree, except he uses different terms like "anti-Russia" as a noun. Maybe look at https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-dehumanized-russia which says a few more interesting things. – the gods from engineering Jul 23 '22 at 06:39
  • @Fizz If Putin has accepted them it's probably easy to find some quotes of him saying so and linking to them and if not it might be putting words in his mouth. I don't say that it isn't plausible or that it isn't true but sometimes I feel a bit critical and ask for more sources. – NoDataDumpNoContribution Jul 23 '22 at 07:26
  • @Trilarion, I'd rather not claim that my interpretation of the lecturer's words are his thoughts. You are right regarding the sources thing, but would Putin put it into the same words? One could summarize my answer as "if Russia gives in on this, it gives up on Russian destiny and fades away." Regarding Ukraine not really being a separate nation or people, there are plenty of quotes from Putin. This view here simply looks at the other side of the coin -- what would it mean if they are? – o.m. Jul 23 '22 at 09:22
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    @Trilarion https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60458300 or https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/17/scum-and-traitors-vladimir-putin-threatens-anti-war-russians I mean which parts do you doubt? It might be better to ask on Skeptics. There are a bunch of "did Putin really say that..." Qs there. – the gods from engineering Jul 23 '22 at 12:26
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    @Fizz, there is this double negative, which is somewhat speculative. If according to Putin Ukraine is really part of Russia, then failing to control Ukraine means he is no longer in control of what he considers all of Russia. And if enough Russians agree that he failed, then he has a problem ... – o.m. Jul 23 '22 at 13:10
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Ukrainian government has never issued any official statements regarding destroying Russia as a country. The alleged threats to Russia are not based on fact, but instead are completely fake (the articulated fictional scenarios often include aggressive NATO attacks on Russia). These fictions served and continue to serve as justification by the Russian government for the war against Ukraine.

Ukrainian government's official goals are taking back all Ukrainian territories that are within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine, pre-2014 Russian invasion.

REFERENCES:

Russian war aims have contracted from conquering Ukraine to simply expanding the territory of the statelets it supposedly went to war to protect. By contrast, Ukraine’s war aims have grown from survival to the recovery of all territory lost to Russia since 2014.

The Evolving Political-Military Aims in the War in Ukraine After 100 Days. Philip Wasielewski. Foreign Policy Research Institute. Jun 9, 2022: https://www.fpri.org/article/2022/06/the-evolving-political-military-aims-in-the-war-in-ukraine-after-100-days/


The President stressed the importance of restoring territorial integrity.

According to him, the result of the war should be respect for the Ukrainian people, land and sovereignty of Ukraine.

"I understand that not all at once. I understand that this is a great challenge - the Russian Federation is fighting against us, whose army, as they say, is the second most powerful in the world," Volodymyr Zelenskyy said.

The Head of State noted that Ukraine must be ready for any security challenge, so it must build its defense system so as to always be able to respond to a possible Russian invasion.

"In any case, a united Europe and a united world is the only possibility of a strong army on the territory of our state, a strong Ukrainian army," he added.

(emphasis here and below is mine - TS)

Ukraine will win if Europe and the world continue to be united - President, 14 June 2022: https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/ukrayina-peremozhe-yaksho-yevropa-ta-svit-i-nadali-budut-oby-75813


And I ask everyone who has such an opportunity to communicate with people in the occupied south, in Donbas, in the Kharkiv region. Tell them about Ukraine. Tell them the truth. Say that there will be liberation. Say it to Kyrylivka, Henichesk, Berdyansk, Manhush. Say it to Horlivka, Donetsk, Luhansk. Say it to everyone in the Kharkiv region who is still forced to see the Russian flag on our Ukrainian land. Tell them that the Ukrainian army will definitely come.

Of course, we will liberate our Crimea as well. The flag of Ukraine will fly again over Yalta and Sudak, over Dzhankoi and Yevpatoriya. And let every Russian official who has seized precious land in Crimea remember: this is not the land where they will have peace.

There is no one today who will say exactly how long our path to victory will take. But the vast majority of people today are already aware - this is our path. This is how this war will end.

Tell people in the occupied territories about Ukraine, that the Ukrainian army will definitely come - address by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, 13 June 2022: https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/govorit-lyudyam-na-okupovanih-teritoriyah-pro-ukrayinu-pro-t-75801


Speaking in the Grand Kremlin Palace, Putin read a short speech that touched on NATO and scolded the United States for creating biological laboratories in the former Soviet Union.

Putin said Russia had evidence that the United States had been trying to create components of biological weapons in Ukraine, a claim Washington and Kyiv have denied.

Besides NATO's "endless expansion policy", Putin said the alliance was reaching far beyond its Euro-Atlantic remit - a trend he said that Russia was following carefully.

Moscow says NATO threatens Russia and that Washington has repeatedly ignored the Kremlin's concerns about the security of its borders in the West, the source of two devastating European invasions in 1812 and 1941.

Putin says the "special military operation" in Ukraine is necessary because the United States was using Ukraine to threaten Russia through NATO enlargement and Moscow had to defend against the persecution of Russian-speaking people.

Putin sees no threat from NATO expansion, warns against military build-up. By Guy Faulconbridge. May 16, 2022: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-calls-finland-sweden-joining-nato-mistake-with-far-reaching-consequences-2022-05-16/

Timur Shtatland
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Well, that article also says

This conflict is existential for most modern Western elites, who are failing and losing the trust of their populations.

and

This conflict is not about Ukraine. Her citizens are used as cannon fodder in a war to preserve the failing supremacy of Western elites.

which kinda sounds a bit lacking in the supporting arguments. But then again, the article leads with

Sergey Karaganov is a prominent Russian political scientist whom I have [...] interviewed many times as a window into Kremlin thinking.

so maybe it's just that, Kremlin thinking. And, in a way, it makes sense, if you change your viewpoint enough.


From the war angle, Ukraine alone obviously shouldn't be able to invade Russia. Not alone...

Mr. Karaganov warned for years about a potential conflict in Ukraine over NATO expansion. [...] we saw how deep Ukraine’s involvement with NATO was — a lot of arms, training. Ukraine was being turned into a spearhead aimed at the heart of Russia.

But it makes some sense in that if NATO wanted to start a land war in Russia, exactly in the way the probably feared a few decades ago, by aiming their armor divisions at Moscow, being able to use Ukraine would be a benefit. That's a bold "if"; I don't expect the people in the West would be really interested in that, but if one thinks in Cold War terms, and is paranoid enough, it starts to look scary.


The article also has this:

I am reiterating in most of my writings and public appearances that we should preserve freedom of thinking and intellectual discussion, which is still much wider than in many other countries. We do not have the cancel culture or impose the deafening political correctness. I am concerned about the freedom of thought in the future.

For what I hear from western media, it doesn't look like "freedom of thought" is that high on the priority list in Russia either.

So, I would perhaps take that article with a rather large crystal of salt, or as a report on the political propaganda. As a comment under the question says, political rhetoric doesn't need to be based on fact. And if you're in a country where the state controls the media, your arguments don't even need to be very good for the people to buy them, as they'll have a hard time finding contrary opinions anyway.


That said, Ukraine could be a problem politically.

Given how it's culturally somewhat close to Russia and was a major part of the Soviet Union, the fact that the people in Ukraine could oust a Kremlin-leaning president just by themselves, as happened in 2014, gives a bad precedent. If it works in Kyiv, who's to say it doesn't work some day in Moscow?

Not that it would necessarily be bad for the people in Russia, but any development of actual democracy would be bad for the regime. Hence, a threat, that warrants some action. Action that needs some rhetoric to justify it.

ilkkachu
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    There actually were hopes / fears that Ukraine might overtake Russia as the place to be if you are Russian, by providing freedoms and institutions that seemed sorely lacking in Russia of 2000s. Nobody said that the Russian country has to be RF. However, after 2014 it has degraded so much that it was no longer dangerous to Kremlin in this regard - with all limitations on Russian language use, travel limitations, physical safety issues. – alamar Jul 21 '22 at 22:41
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In his answer, alamar mentioned 1917, but 1991 must be also mentioned in this context. Both events (coups) were based on Russia (USSR) losing the war. 1917 was not so much about World War 1, but more about the previous war with Japan 1905. 1905 was also the first attempt at an uprising known as First Russian Revolution. 1989 USSR lost the war in Afghanistan, which was one of the triggers for uprisings in the Caucasus and Baltic states. As a result of the uprisings we got the end of the USSR in 1991 while 1917 was the end of the Russian Empire, both events were based on a lost war.

Also since this conflict is often compared with the Finland War of 1940, one of the reasons for Hitler to attack the USSR was that the USSR was not able to beat Finland and such a weak enemy is then really easy to defeat for a much stronger country like Germany. If Russia can´t beat Ukraine, NATO could decide to use Russia's weakness and go for regime change. I know many will call it just Russian paranoia, but there is a famous statement by Biden and some other Western politicians.

Rick Smith
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convert
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  • The person interviewed in the article claims that for the West, this conflict represents an existential risk for the elites, but not for the nations itself, while for Russia there is an existential risk for the nation as a whole. Biden's animosity towards Putin opposes, rather than supports, this position. Biden's animosity was directed specifically towards Putin, and decidedly not against the Russian nation (the view of the West is that the Russian people are themselves victims of Putin), and was presented in a context of rejecting military force as the means of removing Putin. – Acccumulation Jul 23 '22 at 06:31
  • @Acccumulation As you can see from my answer to that question there were 5 example of similar statements by US presidents an twice it led to an intervention of the country and assasination of the leader. – convert Jul 23 '22 at 10:10
  • So, your answer here refers both to an answer here by another poster, and and answer somewhere else by you. Answers on SE are supposed to stand on their own. Someone shouldn't have to read another answer to get sufficient context to understand yours. And your comment doesn't even address mine, because assassination of a leader falls under the "existential risk for elites" category, not "existential risk for country". The per capita GDP of Iraq today is about 4 times what it was in 2003. We didn't exactly destroy the country. – Acccumulation Jul 23 '22 at 17:46
  • @Acccumulation Iraq is still in some kind of civil war and many people have died, but GDP has grown, which also not prooven. – convert Jul 23 '22 at 18:58
  • @Acccumulation My answer doesn´t refer to an answer here by another poster, I just mentioned that he also tallked about some things I am also using in my answer. – convert Jul 23 '22 at 19:23
  • When you say "Both events were based on Russia (USSR) loosing [sic] the war", the reader needs to read alamar's answer to know what "both events" refers to. – Acccumulation Jul 23 '22 at 19:43
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    @Acccumulation Russian Empire not just lost in 1905 but also loosened quite a bit. – alamar Jul 23 '22 at 20:35
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There is no way that Ukraine could destroy Russia as a country. What Ukraine could do is to threaten Putinism, by being a bordering example of a free and prosperous country.

Remember that the USSR installed barbed wire, minefields and vast numbers of troops on its borders to keep people from fleeing and interacting with the free countries of the West.

  • One problem is that it's not prosperous, and also less free as time goes. The benign comment from under the question going missing. – alamar Nov 27 '23 at 07:08
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IMHO none of the offered answers address the question of the OP.

How could Ukraine destroy Russia as a country?

Alone, Ukraine doesn't stand a chance. This has nothing to do with politics, it's strictly numbers (circa beginning of the war):

  • Russia's population is roughly 3 times more than Ukraine's
  • Russia has 1 million active and 2 million reserve military personnel, compared to Ukraine's roughly 200 thousand active, one million reserve.
  • Russia has spent a significant amount of resources and time rearming and modernizing her military, Ukraine - much less so.
  • Russian has ~1.5 trillion USD GDP, Ukraine - 155 million

I have seen the declarations like "For Russia this conflict is about preservation not only of its elites, but the country itself".

I lived in the US for over 20 years. At the moment, I live in Russia. My advice - take what any US media or news outlet says with a grain of salt. In the article you linked, NY Times spins information in the light that the Russian government is actively harboring the elite class and subjugating lower, middle and perhaps even upper class citizens. While many Russian citizens might say similar things, the truth of the matter is - the Russian government provides an overwhelmingly large amount of subsidies, grants, and direct funding or in the form of funding investment forums/groups which in turn distribute the funds to lower class citizens, small and medium businesses. Analyzing the available resources, it becomes evident, that there is very little competition for this funding. Applicants have a roughly 50% chance to get said funding. This does not even take into account various tax incentives and tax returns that everyone who applies has a 100% chance of receiving.

Or do they think this may happen some other way?

Now we get to the real deal. The way the Russian government and by no means a small amount of Russia's population envisions this, is foreign aid to Ukraine.

  • Funding:
    • World bank - ~16 billion USD
    • USA - ~5 billion USD
    • EU - ~20 billion USD
  • Armament:
    • Poland:
      • Main Battle Tanks: 200+
      • Light Tanks: 250
      • Artillery: 18 + 100
      • Anti-Aircraft: unknown quantity shipped
    • Czech Republic:
      • Main Battle Tanks: 40+
      • Light Tanks: 56 + 20
      • Artillery: 30
    • Britain:
      • Light Armored Vehicles: 20 + 35 + 80 + 55 + 15 + 15
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: unknown quantity shipped
      • UAV: 20-30
    • Australia:
      • Light Armored Vehicles: 20
      • Artillery: 6
    • Denmark:
      • Light Armored Vehicles: 25 +50
      • Artillery: 5
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: 300
      • UAV: 25
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 2700
    • USA:
      • Light Armored Vehicles: 200 + 30 + 20 + 40
      • Multiple Rocket Launch System: ~20
      • Artillery: 90
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: 1400+
      • UAV: 72 + 100+ + 700 + ? + 121+
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 5500 + 4200 + 6000
    • Portugal:
      • Light Armored Vehicles: 4
    • France:
      • Artillery: 12
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: unknown quantity shipped
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 50 + 60
    • Germany:
      • Artillery: 7 + 12
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: 500
      • Anti-Aircraft System: 50
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 5100 + 3400 +
    • Norway:
      • Artillery: 20+
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 4000
    • Canada:
      • Artillery: 4
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 4500
    • Netherlands:
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: 200
    • Spain:
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 1370
    • Finland:
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 1500
    • Belgium:
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 200
    • Sweden:
      • Personal Anti-Tank: 10000
    • Total:
      • Main Battle Tanks: 240+
      • Light Tanks: ~350
      • Light Armored Vehicles: ~510
      • Artillery: ~300
      • Personal Anti-Aircraft: ~3000
      • Anti-Aircraft System: 50
      • UAV: ~1100
      • Personal Anti-Tank: ~45000

This does not take into account small arms and unconfirmed quantities or shipments. The numbers are staggering, and such military and financial build-up is what lies at the core of the threat to Russia, especially in light of several stages of NATO expansion (a military alliance at it's core), and talks of Sweden, Finland, Ukraine, Georgia, joining (among others). Ultimately all of this sums up to aggressive expansion on NATO's part. Besides this, there is a large amount of Russian citizens and/or ethnic Russians living in Ukraine, and since 2014, they have been victimized and targeted or "gone missing". This also creates an existential question, "If Russia does not stand up for her citizens or associated ethnicities, then who will, and what is the purpose of existence of a Russian government?" In February 2022, when Kiev's rhetoric changed to, "there will be no negotiations with the separatists, we will seek a military solution", the existential threat of purpose stacked with the previous military and financial aid, and served as a trigger to the start of the war.

Returning to the question:

How could Ukraine destroy Russia as a country?

The answer: With foreign aid.

Will it happen? Time will tell, but at this time, Russia is very far from the point where there is a need to seek a way out of the war, that involves compromises or agreements. There is enough will, power and resources to kepp going until Ukraine completely capitulates, especially in light of the major successes the Russian military achieved in June-July.

MishaP
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    Could you add a source for this: In February 2022, when Kiev's rhetoric changed to, "there will be no negotiations with the separatists, we will seek a military solution". – Ivana Jul 21 '22 at 14:07
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    Kind of a long-winded intro for such a short answer "with foreign aid", which doesn't really elaborate how that would destroy Russia. Are you suggesting Russia would be destroyed by the West given them all those weapons you've listed as aid?? – the gods from engineering Aug 30 '22 at 12:05
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    @Fizz you don't like what I have to say in one answer, so you go down-voting all my answers? Nice. Yes - enough funding, foreign aid and "volunteers" can potentially turn the tide of the war. It doesn't look like there will be enough though - EU seems to be backing out of supporting Ukraine. But the question was asked one month ago, and the situation has changed quite a bit since that time. – MishaP Aug 30 '22 at 12:22
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    I'm all for alternative viewpoints, but this answer makes no effort to explain how Russia would be destroyed by those 600 armored vehicles when they have thousands of nukes. As you say you lived 20 years in the US, I'm sure it's not an issue of language grasp that makes your answer... weird. – the gods from engineering Aug 30 '22 at 12:51
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    @Fizz where there is 600, there could be 6000. The vision, is the evidence of foreign aid, that formulates the threat that there could be MORE foreign aid, that will continue to grow, until Russia is destroyed. – MishaP Sep 23 '22 at 08:52
  • "@Fizz where there is 600, there could be 6000"

    Well, that adds a new dimension to quantitative analysis.

    – Barry DeCicco Nov 25 '23 at 20:35
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    Excellent answer. Your answer is the only one here that avoids speculation and is objective and factual. The simple fact is that Russia isn't fighting Ukranians alone. It is fighting a NATO financed, NATO trained army of Ukranians who are armed by NATO. The complete Ukrainian economy is being propped up by them while NATO countries have also been working to cripple the Russian economy with sanctions. When the question is viewed from that perspective - Can NATO defeat Russia? - the answer becomes more clear why some Russians can indeed view this as an existential crisis for their country. – sfxedit Nov 26 '23 at 12:34
  • Russia was not fighting NATO until they attacked Ukraine in 2022. Aside from quantitative problems, your analysis has causal problems. – Barry DeCicco Nov 29 '23 at 18:54
  • @BarryDeCicco I'm afraid causal problems are a matter of perspective. From NATO perspective - they were peacefully extending their military infrastructure to improve defense capabilities. From Russia's perspective, NATO's extension of military infrastructure increasingly closer to Russia's borders, and NATO's involvement in a large number of wars was a direct threat to national security. Also of note: not all wars are fought with gunpowder. NATO is still enforcing sanctions placed on the USSR against Russia. – MishaP Feb 06 '24 at 17:30
  • Interestingly enough, since the time I posted my answer, there has been more foreign aid to Ukraine and sanctions against Russia from (mostly) NATO countries. If I weren't so lazy, I guess I could find new numbers, but I hardly see the point. At this time, NATO has evidently exhausted its capacity of funding a proxy war against Russia, and now, faced with the decision - escalate by officially sending troops to fight Russia, or back down, NATO politicians have started showing signs of indecisiveness. Evidently, the goal was to "kill some Ruskis", NOT defend Ukraine. – MishaP Feb 06 '24 at 17:48
  • @BarryDeCicco PS formally, Russia is still not fighting NATO, because in 2022, when Russia launched the military campaign in Ukraine, no NATO country declared war against Russia, and Russia did not declare war against any NATO country.

    Informally, the NATO-Russia war had been brewing and growing increasingly hotter long before 2022, and one has only NATO politicians to thank for that.

    – MishaP Feb 06 '24 at 17:54
  • No. Putin has openly stated that he wants to restore the Soviet Empire, and the subject nations object. If it weren't for that, if the Russian government was not as it was, either they would not be in NATO, or NATO would exist but be a remnant, which wouldn't really matter. – Barry DeCicco Feb 10 '24 at 20:55
  • @BarryDeCicco source please – MishaP Feb 17 '24 at 18:21