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I'm over in the UK with quite an interest in US politics, and intrigued at Republican statements about tech and social media being biased against them.

My curiosity is piqued because on the other hand, every time there's any discussion about regulating industries, the response of the same people seems to be almost always that free markets should be left to self regulate and not imposed on - essentially "it's usually wrong to interfere and let the pain fall where it will - the market will address it if it gets too out of hand", or something like that.

Granted that's not an absolute - there are strong laws against many things - but why is it seen as okay that markets should self regulate, and then be upset when they don't self regulate as the speaker would wish?

Surely the free market response enshrined in the Republican/Conservative perspective is squarely based on the principle that ideas compete, social medias compete, and the solution is to be better and more successful than those one objects to, not bemoan their successful stakes achieved by innovation and effort in a lawful and competitive manner in the open market?

And if some ideas/products get less airtime, popular usage/support, or are less effective at penetrating, or the "other side" picked them up quicker and ran with them better, then that's their lookout (essentially "no social support for the losers, and no tax funds to prop them up either").

From here it feels like it may be a bit inconsistent - ("Everyone should follow these rules unless I and mine don't like them, in which case they should be different").

I'd be interested to hear especially Conservative perspectives on it.

(Please forgive any ignorance about the subtleties of the various Conservative positions, if any!)

Stilez
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  • Thanks. Worth noting this isn't about hypocrisy (most parties support things more easily if they gain benefit from them). This is about the fundamental (free market) principles espoused, that are almost definitional in some areas of politics, and what's up in that area. – Stilez Apr 26 '19 at 16:42
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    Are the statements coming from the same Republicans? Republican political positions (or Democratic ones) are not religious dogma to which every member of the party has to unthinkingly conform. So there can be free market Republicans and protectionist Republicans, united by their positions on other issues. – jamesqf Apr 26 '19 at 18:57
  • @jamesqf - good question, that I'm not sure about, see caveat at bottom of OP. Feel free to include comment on that in any answer. (Tongue in cheek, I live over here with Brexit - we are frustratingly all.too aware about people in the same political party because of some shared ideals that disagree strongly on some others ;-) ) But support for the free market seems to be one of the "big unifiers" for many people under that banner. – Stilez Apr 26 '19 at 19:01
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    The difference is almost plainly with the level of government involvement. For example, if someone is saying something hateful (say a white supremacist), it would be normal for someone on the right to berate that person for their views, while at the same time advocating for the government to stay out of it. – Brian Leishman Apr 26 '19 at 19:28
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    It'd be helpful if you could provide some examples of major Republican/conservative politicians making comments along these lines. – Nat Apr 27 '19 at 06:28
  • Your main mistake is assuming that all Conservatives are in favour of a Free Market. – DJClayworth Apr 27 '19 at 12:55
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    The question asks about "Republicans who favour a free market", not "Republicans who don't" :) – Stilez Apr 27 '19 at 17:16
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    Its less the exception and more the rule in politics for parties and voting blocks to have inconsistent views. Usually there is a political incentive for candidates to tell voters they can have their cake and eat it, even if it doesn't line up philosophically. One could argue that in some cases ideological purity is a weakness rather than a strength. – Mark Rogers Apr 27 '19 at 18:32
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    I've raised three kids. Trust me, "I want that!/I hate that!" is a perfectly normal reaction from any three-year-old. – Bob Jarvis - Слава Україні Apr 28 '19 at 14:14
  • @Stilez "Favor" and "dogmatically adhere to" are not the same thing. One can prefer a market solution while also recognizing when it fails. – eyeballfrog Apr 29 '19 at 07:54
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    Don't expect consistency with politicians, especially if they adhere more to ideology than anything else. – Dohn Joe Apr 29 '19 at 09:01
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    While those politicians discourse are genuinely hypocritical they are being consistent with their interests and the interests of the corporative overlords finances their campaigns – jean Apr 29 '19 at 16:02
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    @Stilez Can you clarify where you think the inconsistency is? As it stands, I don't see an inconsistency. – user76284 Apr 29 '19 at 16:37

9 Answers9

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I think the misunderstanding comes from how conservatives complain about bias in media and tech. Conservatives often don't call for government action, they just want to shed light on the injustices. For example:

“Some of us tell the truth about our government, they call us treasonous and say we’re speaking out of line and they’d like to punish us, and I think that’s part of what’s happening with social media,” [Ron] Paul told RT, adding that he hopes anti-government or anti-war voices can eliminate their “dependency” on the current social media platforms.

“I’m just hoping that technology can stay ahead of it all and that we can have real alternatives to the dependency on Twitter and other companies that have been working hand in glove with the government,” Paul added.

Ron Paul doesn't call for the government to solve the problem. He says the companies are acting like a corrupt government and calls for people to use alternatives. Republicans want to bring corporate bias and misbehavior to light so people will be outraged and avoid the offending businesses. Then the companies will have to choose between fixing their problem or losing money. That's the free-market solution to companies behaving badly.

The other free-market friendly intervention would be to prosecute fraud. One example comes from the Libertarian Party of Texas platform "The force of government must be used only in response to an attack, fraud, or other initiation of force against an individual, group or government by another individual, group or government." If Google says they're a neutral platform, but actually have algorithms designed to make sure no one can find conservative content, that's fraud. Most free-enterprise folks still think there's a strong role for government in forcing the perpetrator of fraud to pay damages or serve prison time.

In cases where Republicans call for government regulation of speech to protect them from the big bad liberal media, this might be a function of not all conservatives sharing the same free-market/libertarian ideas about what the government should and shouldn't do. Many conservatives in the "religious right" would love to see free speech regulated better. One example comes from them wanting to protect their children from pornography. They'd be happy to restrict public access to certain speech and content, despite it reducing freedom, because they think too much of certain kinds of freedom is destructive to a moral society. This idea of conservatism as preserving cultural norms can be radically different from the libertarian, maximum-freedom philosophy.

Brythan
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lazarusL
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    That first point, about drawing attention to motivate societal/market behaviour changes, is the kind of thing I'm looking for as "missing links" - thank you for that gem. Although I'm sure that's only part of it. Ditto the 2nd one on libertarian responses. Really useful to see those views. I'm aware that Republican support can cover a range from non interventionalism to religiously motivated intervene-for-morality; I'm more thinking of those who favour a "free market, lots of effort, no state crutches, and hey, bad luck to those who don't make it" mindset. – Stilez Apr 26 '19 at 17:35
  • @Stilez I think it's easy to conflate "free market" and "unrestricted market" when libertarians don't see them as the same thing. – IllusiveBrian Apr 26 '19 at 22:50
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    "Republicans want to bring the misbehavior to light so people will be outraged" - are these the same people who complain about "outrage culture"? – Reasonably Against Genocide Apr 26 '19 at 23:42
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    @immibis The conservative critique of "outrage culture" is very specific. The absence of outrage culture isn't some we-must-never-be-upset-for-any-reason nonsense; it's simply not channeling massive tribal outrage into every perceived infraction regardless of intent or magnitude.

    This isn't to say the right isn't constantly hypocritical; it is. I just wanted to point out there's more than a strawman there.

    – lazarusL Apr 27 '19 at 02:50
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    @immibis - "outrage culture" and actual outrage at injustices are almost diametral opposites. – Davor Apr 28 '19 at 09:42
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Sam I am says Reinstate Monica Apr 29 '19 at 14:33
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It probably depends on what circle of 'conservatives' you're talking to, but the most legitimate complaint I see get thrown around, is that big tech companies should be forced to abide by one of the two legal frameworks that they currently only take the best parts from.

Either they are a platform, in which case they shouldn't be censoring anything not explicitly illegal.

OR

They are publishers, and liable for every single bit of libel/slander that pops up in their content. Which would almost certainly lead to requiring curation by an editor of all content before it's visible, or lead to an immediate end to those tech companies via lawsuits.

It isn't that they dislike how the game of 'free markets' play out, it's that from their perspective, one side is cheating, and openly at that.

Jack Of All Trades 234
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So I'm on the libertarian side with some leftist and some rightist reservations, so I am not a conservative, but I think there are a few points to be made. I think I should note that I don't buy the second point completely, but I have heard the argument be made, so I might not be the best at arguing it.

First, expressing dislike about how the market ends up going isn't inherently anti-free market. Many people who are conservative/libertarian will criticize companies for what they do, but not call for regulation. Not liking something because it doesn't fit your needs is not anti-free market. For example, I would be sad if Dunkin Donuts went out of business, and complain a lot, but as long as I didn't try to enact laws that subsidized them/taxed Honey Dew, I wouldn't violate my principles of being a free marketer. We can see Sen Mike Lee do that in a Senate Sub-committee here, where he accuses them of bias, and clearly doesn't like them, but doesn't want to regulate them as a utility.

Second, we have competing freedoms, that of speech and trade. Libertarians and conservatives value both free markets and free speech. Here they come into conflict. An extreme example of freedoms conflicting would be slavery, which we roundly reject as one's personal liberty trumps free trade. We do like free markets, but this comes from respecting individual liberty, including the individual liberty to trade. So you should be free to trade, just not in a manner that restricts other's freedom*.

So the question is if social media censorship is limiting people's rights. In America, we have one of the strongest free speech rights that exists. It allows one to say hateful, factually wrong things* without liable in most cases. Before social media, people who had ideas others would like to censor (the Wobblies come to mind) would stand on soapboxes in the public square, and no one could (legally and constitutionally) stop them.

But now people protest and raise awareness through Twitter and Facebook and other social media, which have supplanted and expanded the public forum. But Twitter and Facebook, despite being American Companies who have American customers, censor speech without regard to the first amendment. Yes, legally speaking, they are not a government so the first amendment doesn't apply to them, but the way they are engaging in trade limits people's freedom of speech.

*: With some small limits, but much smaller than you would expect. For example, hate speech doesn't legally exist in America and is protected by the first amendment. Also, much of what would be libel/slander in the UK is fine in the US, though there still some limits.

theresawalrus
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  • Helpful but some doubts on this, could you expand the answer to address any of them? 1) I don't hear expressions of dislike - I hear calls that these private businesses+ their private customers shouldn't be allowed to talk/curate/listen as they wish, even though the society clearly likes it and it doesn't prevent others doing likewise. 2) If I stood on a street corner but couldn't get enough traction+listeners (for whatever reason), I wouldn't have a claim that my freedom of speech was thereby "limited". – Stilez Apr 26 '19 at 17:46
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  • Again this comes back to the question in the OP itself - if some feel that there is one sided censorship, then the free market position is that the "winners" have won because they gain listeners, and members of society have freely and without coercion chosen, and competitors must either do better, or cede. So they might not like it, but in principle they should feel their principles were upheld. Wanting free market choice and then being upset if the free market outcome is that you wanted more people to believe as you do....?
  • – Stilez Apr 26 '19 at 17:47
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    @Stilez 1) There are definitely comments of dislike but don't regulate, notably Reason.com has a couple whenever it happens. 2) I agree. But if you stood on a street corner, and someone tackled you to stop you from speaking, your speech would be limited. Social media companies are doing this. Social media companies are arguing that they made the street corner, and thus they can push you off of it, while some conservatives argue that social media companies effectively bought all the street corners, and now use that ownership to restrict freedom of speech. – theresawalrus Apr 26 '19 at 17:55
  • and Good point on 3, I'll probably delete it. – theresawalrus Apr 26 '19 at 17:57
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    @Stilez Your point 3 is not how right-wing people view these issues. On the contrary, it seems that many right wing speakers are quite successful. Rush Limbaugh certainly has a long history of it. Ben Shapiro comes to mind as someone successful whom college campuses were trying to keep from speaking. Carl Benjamin, aka Sargon of Akkad, didn't seem to be having any particular trouble attracting an audience. The basis of deplatforming these last two, though, was not simply failing to attract listeners. Rather, the organizations in question wished to actively stifle their speech. – jpmc26 Apr 28 '19 at 15:17
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    @jomc26 - if people cared about it, they would have boycotted, moved, or other platforms gained at the cost of deplatforming ones. Remember, the Q isn't about "is this right or wrong", its about "how can a person who is a conservative, and supports free market ideals, be legitimately angry when a free market body acts freely in this way". The market will correct it, if the market as a whole cares enough to do so, like any other conduct that a competitive market has a view on. There are, after all, many other outlets, and much scope for market action. – Stilez Apr 28 '19 at 17:57
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    @jpmc26 It's hardly stifling their speech to exercise your first amendment right to freedom of association. It's just telling them to do it somewhere else. If you somehow haven't seen it yet, checkout the famous XKCD comic on this issue. – CrackpotCrocodile Apr 28 '19 at 19:48
  • "An extreme example of freedoms conflicting would be slavery, which we roundly reject as one's personal liberty trumps free trade." Huh? Are you referring to slavery as "free trade"? "but the way they are engaging in trade limits people's freedom of speech." They are making choices as to what speech they support. That is exercising their free speech rights. Your explanation is at odds with conservatives who claim laws against discriminating against gay people is restricting free speech. According to your logic, a baker who refuses to bake a cake is infringing on the couple's free speech. – Acccumulation Apr 30 '19 at 20:49