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I was not born in the USA, and I am trying to understand the Second Amendment. My big question is:

When was the last time US citizens made use of the Second Amendment and fought against the US government to protect their freedom?

I expect a date, or an event, or "never" as an answer to my question (see my second edit).

If the Civil War is the answer, then I want to clarify: in the Civil War didn't people fight people rather than the government? Father vs son, brother vs brother, etc?


Edit: clarification

Some people complained that my question is too vague, and I agree with that. What is meant by government? Do local governments count? Do bullets have to be shot or is a peaceful protest with guns enough to be considered an exercise of the 2nd amendment? I will argue and say that the ambiguity of my question is caused by the ambiguity of the 2nd amendment itself. I think the 2nd amendment is too primitive to adequately cover all user cases of a much more complex world we live in today compared to the way this world was when the amendment was first written. Please use your best judgment and logic when answering questions and posting comments. As an OP, I don't know how I should make this question more specific.

Edit 2: additional clarifications

Here is where I am coming from with this question. A lot of people, when arguing about the 2nd amendment, state that they need the 2nd amendment to protect themselves from corrupt government (I recently participated in such a discussion with friends). The next natural question to those people I had is "when was the last time that happened?" So, I came to this website to find an answer. When I asked the question I expected either a specific date or event, or "never" as a reply. It turned out my question generated a lot of discussion. I received multiple dates/events as answeres as candidates for my answer, as well as requests to clarify my question and suggestions in comments that the 2nd amendment hypothetically prevented the US from a hypothetical corrupt government, which is not really an answer. I also found "counter arguments" (if they can be qualified as such) to the most currently highly upvoted answer. In the mean time, I accept an unpopular answer as "It haven't happened yet" as accepted, until a better answer emerges.

Disclaimer: I don't mean to appear anti-gun-ownership. I believe people have the right to own guns, but my opinion has no place on this website. I am on this site expecting to get unbiased, logical answers which weigh both sides of the argument.

Edit 3: I took away my accepted answer check mark so not too skew other people's opinions on this issue.

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    I would rhetorically ask, for example, when was the last time a parliamentary system prevented the rise of tyranny in Europe? It is difficult to argue when a passive defense has actually defended against something. If we could run a separate simulation of the US without the 2nd amendment, we would be able to answer to this question. But we can't, and I can't think of any way of answering this question. – arrowturnips Feb 28 '18 at 18:26
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    This is rather like asking when was the last time nuclear weapons were used to prevent the Soviet Union from overrunning western Europe. The point is that if you have a sufficient deterrent, you don't need to actually use the weapons. – jamesqf Feb 28 '18 at 19:28
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    The many answers below reflect the ambiguity of the questions scope. Does the government confronted have to be representative of Federal authority? Does the it have to be directly related to defending a freedom? Do shoots need to be fired? The Question should provide all of these facts to properly scope it, unless you want it to be broader. – Drunk Cynic Feb 28 '18 at 20:28
  • @DrunkCynic when I asked this question I was not aware of complexity it carried within. Initially I viewed it as country-wide rebellion against lawmakers and people in charge of our country. But it's hard to argue (if not impossible) that small rebellions here and there against local of government(s) wouldn't count as well. – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Feb 28 '18 at 20:37
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    @AlexL one thing you have to realize is the complexity of state and local vs federal government. I think that may be the piece you are missing. In a lot of ways the US is a lot like 50 separate countries with a union over them (maybe like the European Union but I am not sure how apt that comparison is). So the question is: do you mean Federal, State, Local, all, or any? – Jake Feb 28 '18 at 21:09
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    @Jake well, I am asking about the same exact government that 2nd amendment is taking about. So, which one is it: Federal, State, Local, all or any? (I apologies if I sound sarcastic here, I don't mean to. I am only trying to get to the bottom of it. Thanks. ) – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Feb 28 '18 at 21:13
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    @AlexL That is also a problem then because the second amendment does not specify that it is even for fighting the government. There is a question on here that deals with the historical context of the amendment, but the text of the amendment is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." So the definition largely hinges on the definition of "free state" – Jake Feb 28 '18 at 21:17
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    @AlexL found it on history.SE – Jake Feb 28 '18 at 21:19
  • Probably doesn't meet all your requirements, but you may still find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge interesting. – erickson Mar 02 '18 at 21:13
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    I'm still having a hard time figuring out exactly what is being asked. The second amendment merely restrains the government from infringing on what it recognizes as being the inherent right of the people to keep and bear arms. There is no such thing legally as someone "exercising the 2nd amendment," except maybe in a court case challenging a government attempt to restrict weapon ownership. It does not say what people can do, only what the government can't do, namely, prevent the citizens from possessing and bearing arms. – reirab Mar 02 '18 at 23:27
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    The 2nd ammendment was used in 2015 to overturn a Washington DC law limiting citizens' gun freedoms. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/09/18/d-c-gun-registration-law-ruled-unconstitutional/?utm_term=.edd1f071cadd – Russell Hankins Mar 03 '18 at 00:37
  • @RussellHankins: That, together with the point made in a (now-deleted? I can't find it. Maybe on another question) comment that the second amendment doesn't grant the right to keep and bear arms, it acknowledges that is a natural right and prevents the government from abridging it, are the correct answer to this question -- why don't you write one. All the existing answers are about exercise of the natural right the 2nd protects, not about exercise of the 2nd. – Ben Voigt Mar 03 '18 at 21:26
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    I really think you should reexamine the Bundy standoff in @bubbajake00's answer. It raises exactly the issues you were hoping to understand. The govt's action in that case would've completely destroyed his entire way of life. Whether he was right or wrong isn't really the issue. He believed his livelihood was at stake and that the legal system had failed him. The armed standoff made the gov't back down and rethink land rights issues. He got his cows back and nobody died that day -- a prime example of armed citizens pushing back against the gov't over what they saw as a threat to their rights. – Wes Sayeed Mar 05 '18 at 00:44
  • @blip I ask when "when the 2nd amendment was used". Whether "guns were used" applies or not - depends on the meaning of 2nd amendment. – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Apr 19 '18 at 14:17
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    "depends on the meaning of 2nd amendment." = I think that's the catch. There is no 'one meaning' of the 2nd amendment. –  Apr 19 '18 at 16:33
  • @blip Yes, hence my first edit. Quote from my first edit: "I think the 2nd amendment is too primitive to adequately cover all user cases of a much more complex world we live in today compared to the way this world was when the amendment was first written. Please use your best judgment and logic when answering questions and posting comments. As an OP, I don't know how I should make this question more specific." – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Apr 19 '18 at 16:43
  • I suggest you also include in your research on this topic (1) writings in the Federalist Papers, Anti-federalist Papers and other newspaper editorial compilations from the revolutionary period on the topic of "the militia", (2) sections of the Articles of Confederation on which the 2nd Amendment was apparently based, that require each state to arm, clothe, fund and facilitate the training of the militia, and (3) how the treatment of firerams in American culture has changed over the years as we have become a more and more urban and suburban country. – wberry Feb 22 '23 at 15:49
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    The premise of this question, that the second amendment somehow authorizes people to fight against the US government, is highly questionable at best and simply incorrect at worst. After all, the constitution provides that levying war against the United States is treason. (Also, "father vs. son," etc.: Those fathers and sons and brothers were soldiers in enemy armies. If you want to characterize that as "people against people" then every war fits that description.) – phoog Feb 25 '23 at 21:50
  • What @phoog said. Also, the variability in answers comes from how various people who took arms saw "their freedom". I mean in the extreme example even an ISIS-inspired terrorist is fighting for their vision of "freedom" to make a Caliphate out the USA and the world at large. And the latter example is actually someone who did take up arms against the US more literally than in the other examples. Yeah, an ISIS-inspired terrorist likely won't be invoking the 2nd amendment in their speech though. – the gods from engineering Feb 25 '23 at 21:58
  • And depending on you qualify government or rights many of the violent examples in https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/53706/has-any-of-the-us-federal-armed-forces-acted-violently-against-civil-movements might qualify in some way too. – the gods from engineering Feb 25 '23 at 22:08
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    "in the Civil War didn't people fight people rather than the government?" - In what war did people not fight people, in the end? Even drones have operators. In the Civil War it's not like families just started shooting at each other; they'd join the government army (or get drafted to it.) It's just that sometimes one member would join one side and another member the other. – D M Feb 26 '23 at 00:37

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States suggests Wounded Knee in '73.

In 1973 about 200 people mostly from a Lakota tribe took over a town on the site of a famous massacre. They held the town for 71 days sporadicly exchanging gunfire with law enforcement including the FBI.

It was sparked by a failure of regular mechanisms to remove a elected official (he had goons). It quickly escalated to be about the US not honoring treaties with natives and many non-Lokota joined.

It was fairly successful; popular opinion was in favor, the leaders were not sentenced and the phrase "poor treatment of Native Americans in the film industry" was first broadcast from Hollywood. The official served another 3 years after winning an election that was invalidated because of the actions of the goons, but later upheld.

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    Recommend referencing what freedoms were being protected through the armed standoff. – Drunk Cynic Feb 28 '18 at 19:59
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    While it was a internal issue the issue was connected to relations with the federal government, Wilson was thought to be a puppet of the government maintaining power illegally with federal approval or help and of favoring federal interests over his electorate's. –  Feb 28 '18 at 20:31
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    Interesting. I found this article which states that "America’s Constitutional right to keep and bear arms was in part to protect one from Native Americans and even give one the right to kill Native Americans". So, did Bill of Rights cover Native Americans originally? Or is article I posted is not trustworthy and there is no truth in it? – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Mar 01 '18 at 14:36
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    Here is another "counter argument" from Washington Post article. Quote: "the 18th-century regulations that required citizens to participate in the militia also prohibited blacks and Indians from participating as arms-bearing members". – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Mar 01 '18 at 14:50
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    @AlexL you might ask on history.se, but it is my understanding that we have been selling guns to indians for a long time, and banning them from serving in militias is slightly different. Being assured of self protection does not necessarily mean denying the same to some other group, however, there are treaties made around that time, so it should be answerable if "not bearing arms" was a term or not. –  Mar 01 '18 at 17:30
  • Great answer and more recent. Another event in the 1900s was the Bonus Army, where US soldiers (who were also armed) basically threated the government to honor its promise to them - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army. People often forget this event helped led to the rise of FDR. – Ms Jackson Apr 23 '18 at 15:52
  • When the US Constitution was written Indians and Blacks did not have the same legal status as Whites. Indians were not considered US citizens until 1924. – arp May 24 '18 at 01:01
  • @arp - are Indians US citizens? Their lands are federally protected, and yet federal government has no authority there? Are they issued with US passports without any issue/requirement? Not being ironical, just don't know. –  Oct 15 '18 at 09:37
  • @acepl Native Americans are US citizens if they meet the relevant criteria, but the treaties the US government signed with the various tribes do treat them as sovereign nations. Thus for example, at least as of a few years ago it was possible to cross the US-Canada border with only a tribal ID card if you were a member of a tribe that spanned the border. – arp Oct 15 '18 at 13:07
  • @arp - Thank you. But your comment means that N.A. tribesmen aren't conferred US citizenship automatically? Also: are tribes part of federation, protectorates or full-blown sovereign states? –  Oct 15 '18 at 13:12
  • @acepl for one thing, Canada has First Nations as well (and has recently made a push to go through all the old treaties signed and craft deals that clear up all that pesky stolen land.) I was specifically thinking of Mohawks whose nation spans the border. – arp Oct 15 '18 at 13:29
  • This is not a "good" example in the sense that Native Americans have rights, or claims to rights, that are not based in the constitution but rather on their native status. They are partly - in a moral if not in a legal sense - people of another nation, which are not supposed to be under US sovereignty. – einpoklum Mar 24 '19 at 16:25
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This has happened as recently as 2014 in Bunkerville, Clark County, Nevada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

The 2014 Bundy standoff was an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally-owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.

As you can see, this was a confrontation between armed citizens and the government, specifically the Bureau of Land Management. Because the citizens were armed, the government was not able to enforce their will on the people.

As for shots fired:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418491/Ammon-Bundy-arrested-three-fellow-militiamen-shots-fired-Oregon-stand-off.html

Oregon militia spokesman LaVoy Finicum has been shot dead after a traffic stop escalated into a shoot-out that saw Ryan Bundy wounded and eight leaders of the occupation movement arrested.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/militant_shot_and_killed_while.html

With the car running, she said, Finicum "got out of the car and he had his hands in the air and he was like, 'Just shoot me then, just shoot me.'"

"And they did," she said. "They shot him dead."

Sharp said she thought she heard as many as 100 bullets fired and that those remaining in the car were getting "gassed." She said they were trying to find something white they could wave out the window.

bubbajake00
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  • Why the down vote? – bubbajake00 Feb 28 '18 at 20:19
  • I didn't downvote, but this doesn't qualify because no shots were fired, per OP's comments. – IllusiveBrian Feb 28 '18 at 20:20
  • @IllusiveBrian Oh that comment was hidden when I first looked, I'll delete this now since it doesn't fit. – bubbajake00 Feb 28 '18 at 20:24
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    @IllusiveBrian actually upon further research, one person was killed and another was wounded in a traffic stop regarding this. "Oregon militia spokesman LaVoy Finicum has been shot dead after a traffic stop escalated into a shoot-out that saw Ryan Bundy wounded and eight leaders of the occupation movement arrested." – bubbajake00 Feb 28 '18 at 20:26
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    I updated my question with clarification. – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Feb 28 '18 at 20:58
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    Surely you can find a better source than the Daily Mail. – David Richerby Feb 28 '18 at 21:14
  • http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/militant_shot_and_killed_while.html – Michael Hampton Feb 28 '18 at 21:16
  • @DavidRicherby that was just the first article I found, saw others by CNN and HuffPost as well. Added an additional quote from the source MichaelHampton provided. – bubbajake00 Feb 28 '18 at 21:22
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    I'm not saying this is wrong or right, but can you explicitly state the rights they were protecting? – Azor Ahai -him- Feb 28 '18 at 23:21
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    This does not answer the question concerning rights. Using Bundy as an example is odd since Bundy doesn't believe the US Government even exists. The Constitution, legal precedent, and common sense (Washington D.C.!) show the US Government can Constitutionally own land and thus his fees were lawful leaving him in breach of contract and subject to punitive measures. Yes, armed citizens made the government not enforce their laws. But his rights were not being infringed. – CramerTV Mar 01 '18 at 03:02
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    @CramerTV No. The Federal Government has a very narrow authority to own and govern land, with Washington D.C. itself being limited to 10 square miles, per Article 1 Section 8. Refer to the 10th amendment regarding the restrictive nature of the Constitution and the authorities of the Federal Government. Why should the Federal Government control 85% of land in Nevada? – Drunk Cynic Mar 01 '18 at 03:35
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    @DrunkCynic: You're ignoring the second half of that clause, which allows the feds to "exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be". In other words, if at any time Nevada ever consented to the feds owning that land, then they can own and govern it as they see fit. – Kevin Mar 01 '18 at 05:14
  • @Kevin 85% of the land of Nevada isn't filled with "Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, or other needful Buildings" – Drunk Cynic Mar 01 '18 at 06:37
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    @DrunkCynic: Yeah, and Copyright stopped being about "promoting the progress of science and the useful arts" in 1998 if not substantially earlier, but you don't see people successfully making that argument either. – Kevin Mar 01 '18 at 06:41
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    @CramerTV It was well within the British Government's (legal at the time) rights to tax colonialists, yet here we are. "No taxation without representation" was the rallying cry but it certainly wasn't the law nor the right of the colonies to demand it depending on your point of view. I don't think Bundy is akin to the revolutionaries of the time to anyone but him and his followers, but his perspective of the federal government is at least somewhat similar to that of the founding fathers to the Government of England, which he exploits with limited success. –  Mar 01 '18 at 16:26
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    I upvoted this answer, and think it's the best one, because regardless of whether you think there were legitimate rights/freedoms being defended (I don't), the attitude behind the Bundy standoff was that the government's position was not legitimate, and this attitude is pretty close to what most people who view 2A as a check on government power have in mind. They're not arguing that they can use 2A to rise up and overthrow a totalitarian government. They're arguing that they can win a standoff with the threat of significant injury/death on both sides & avoid doing what government tells them to – R.. GitHub STOP HELPING ICE Mar 01 '18 at 18:06
  • @Azor-Ahai Land use rights, a big issue out West. In some states, the federal government has declared a majority of the land to be protected (such as by declaring an area a national park or national monument), which means it can't legally be used by private citizens for economic activity. Specifically, the argument is that it's a violation of the "takings clause" of the 5th amendment (taking private property without compensation), and there have been scores of lawsuits by state governments against the federal government for the practice, as well as actions by individuals like the Bundys. – HopelessN00b Mar 02 '18 at 08:58
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    I think that, as opposed to your claim, the government eventually did impose their will on the people; this supports the critique @OHGODSPIEDRS makes of this rationale for the 2nd amendment: That it is effectiveyl useless against the armed agents of the government (who consequentially decide the outcome of any rebellion when they take sides). – Peter - Reinstate Monica Mar 02 '18 at 12:58
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    How does this differ from J. Random Criminal being shot by the police? Believing you don't have to comply with the law does not give you the right to not comply with the law. – pjc50 Mar 05 '18 at 10:59
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    @pjc50 Scale (When one person doesn't like the government enough to cause violence, they have a problem. When a hundred million people don't like the government enough to cause violence, the government has a problem) and ideology (J Random Criminal usually doesn't have any anti-government sentinent other than "they're gonna lock me up so I better shoot them first") – Reasonably Against Genocide Apr 07 '18 at 07:02
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    This is a ridiculous premise. It's arguing, essentially, that "because a person has a gun, they can break the law and the government can't do anything about it". This is obviously NOT what the 2nd amendment is for. –  Apr 18 '18 at 19:47
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    @HopelessN00b the Bundys were complaining about having to pay to use Government land, not that they had been deprived of the use of their own property. – Paul Johnson Mar 24 '19 at 08:57
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    The Bundy incident ended with the rebels dead or in prison. Not a good example of the Second Amendment in action. – Paul Johnson Mar 24 '19 at 08:59
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    @PaulJohnson The complaint, especially out West, is that the federal government stole (seized without compensation) huge swaths of land that used to belong to the state government, and is completely unresponsive to local preferences and needs. It's a very big deal in big parts of the US. ... an understandable viewpoint, if you put yourself in their shoes - a government 2,000 miles away takes half the land in your state and then imposes their preferred use of it on you and your community at gunpoint. Seems like the type of thing most people would not take kindly to. – HopelessN00b Mar 24 '19 at 18:20
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It hasn't happened.

The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision. It exists to protect the American people from government tyranny and oppression.

The U.S. government has not exercised its power against the American people in what would be considered mass tyranny and oppression (e.g., Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, Castro's Cuba, Ceaușescu's Romania, Chavez & Maduro's Venezuela).

But the threat is ever-present, and the Founders knew this.

As U.S. Appeals Court Judge Alex Kozinski observed:

[The Second Amendment] is designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed — where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.


Judge Alex Kozinski
U.S. Court of Appeals
9th Circuit
SILVEIRA v LOCKYER (2003)

All too many of the other great tragedies of history — Stalin's atrocities, the killing fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust, to name but a few — were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations. Many could well have been avoided or mitigated, had the perpetrators known their intended victims were equipped with a rifle and twenty bullets apiece, as the Militia Act required here. If a few hundred Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto could hold off the Wehrmacht for almost a month with only a handful of weapons, six million Jews armed with rifles could not so easily have been herded into cattle cars.

My excellent colleagues have forgotten these bitter lessons of history. The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed — where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.

Fortunately, the Framers were wise enough to entrench the right of the people to keep and bear arms within our constitutional structure. The purpose and importance of that right was still fresh in their minds, and they spelled it out clearly so it would not be forgotten. Despite the panel's mighty struggle to erase these words, they remain, and the people themselves can read what they say plainly enough:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

phoog
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Michael Benjamin
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    I've downvoted this answer because the primary claim that the US Government hasn't exercised its power in a totalitarian or authoritarian way is refuted by the Japanese Internment. – Drunk Cynic Feb 28 '18 at 20:07
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    The individuals interred were US citizens, though of Japanese descent. However, if the scope of the question is narrowed to armed citizen response to the Federal Government to protect freedoms, with shots being fired, this is the right answer because there hasn't been an event that fits in that scope. At least not one I can identify. – Drunk Cynic Feb 28 '18 at 20:14
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    The Wounded Knee event was a response to conflict internal to the reservation, which was expanded with a Federal response and evolved into a general protest against government Mistreatment of Native Americans; no freedoms threatened. The Athens response was mostly against the corruption of the local government. No shots were fired in Nevada. – Drunk Cynic Feb 28 '18 at 20:17
  • @DrunkCynic Harper's Ferry may qualify for that –  Feb 28 '18 at 20:18
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    But America is a young country (230 years old). A) I don't see the relation to The threat of government tyranny is ever-present (are you trying to say that China is under no threat of tyranny due to its age?) and B) according to which count? "Old countries" periodically pass through revolutions/reorganizations/restablishments; e.g. the French current Fifth Republic was stablished in 1958, Germany practically was "restarted" in 1945, etc.. OTOH, the USA was not created ex novo, as it incorporated the legal and social traditions of England. – SJuan76 Feb 28 '18 at 20:29
  • The relation is to the question's possible premise (the OP was vague in this area). If the question is being asked in order to establish a justification for the 2A, then my point is that, with or without examples, a justification exists... – Michael Benjamin Feb 28 '18 at 21:24
  • ...and, thinking there is an equivalency between the US government, at any time in its history, and the regimes that I cited, is ridiculous. There is no equivalency (and hopefully there never will be). – Michael Benjamin Feb 28 '18 at 22:10
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    While Judge Kozinski dissenting opinion is important (worthwhile to note that he was dissenting from the overall decision), he was likely ignorant of examples like Athens or Wounded Knee, where there were election issues and efforts to silence dissent. A claim of "it hasn't happened," pulling the negative, doesn't stand in the presence of positive indication. – Drunk Cynic Mar 01 '18 at 03:27
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    Would the 2nd amendment actually help if the USA did become an evil totalitarian state? Failed attempts to overthrow the government wouldn't really get much support from the 2nd amendment, and if they did manage to overthrow the evil, would the winners then prosecute themselves if the 2nd amendment didn't exist? – curiousdannii Mar 01 '18 at 06:03
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    While this certainly answers the question I don't really feel the answers quality is helped by outright stating that the 2nd amendment is "needed" and an "insurance policy" and therefor should exist. In my opinion that's a pipe dream that sounds like out of a bad action movie. If the US government where to turn totalitatian and "the people" where to resist that then the winner would obviously be the side that the US military would take. Thinking that some handguns would enable anyone to "fight" with the 600 billion us army (in case it sides with the totalitatian government) is ridiculous. – OH GOD SPIDERS Mar 01 '18 at 12:49
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    @curiousdannii The point (of 2a) isn't about the prosecution of victors after an overthrow, it's about making sure the government doesn't confiscate all the guns while it's non-totalitarian and only later on change. (I'm not arguing for or against here just pointing out the reasoning). – DRF Mar 01 '18 at 13:24
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Sam I am says Reinstate Monica Mar 01 '18 at 18:34
  • The discussion was moved to chat. Please respect that. – Philipp Mar 03 '18 at 10:17
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    This is really interesting! Being a US american citizen in the US army carries much more social wow than it is the case for any european country. And as far as I understand, the "I need my guns"-peope are usually also a part of the "I support the troops"-group. But the paragraphs in this answer justify the second amendment with the possible need to shoot the troops. ...So isn't it rather guns or army? – NightLightFighter Mar 03 '18 at 14:08
  • @OHGODSPIDERS Mostly a good point, but you say "the army" as if it's a single entity. There are a large number of individuals in the army and such a circumstance would most likely split the army - some soldiers siding with the government, others siding with "the people". What would make a difference is the rank of the soldiers, if all the top generals (who know the security codes) picked one side then that side would be the one at an advantage. – Pharap Mar 03 '18 at 17:12
  • @NightLightFighter: Nope. They need their guns in case the government goes evil, but (1) the military's job includes protecting us from other, way worse governments, and (2) there's a long-standing tradition (perhaps even a law) against using our US military forces against Americans on US soil. So the military is seen as defending against outside threats, rather than carrying out our government's will against us. As long as it remains that way, one can support gun rights and support the troops. – cHao Mar 03 '18 at 17:24
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    @cHao But if the government "goes evil", how does it project it's power onto the people? Usually this is done via the military (and similar militaristic security police). And a simple law against US troops doing stuff on US soil doesn't help you - as the government is evil and the courts corrupted/afraid. And wasn't there some military-thing involved on US soil with black kids going to school? I need to look that up. Simply put: The Bad Government says "Emergency! Good people are overthrowing us! Army help!" That's when the 2nd Amendment comes into play. So should you be shooting your troops? – NightLightFighter Mar 03 '18 at 18:17
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    @NightLightFighter: Like i said, gun nuts will only support the troops as long as the military is on the right side. If it's attacking us, it will by definition have become the enemy, and troops will be shot at. The schools thing involved the National Guard, a sort of federal militia. They're part-time soldiers, and live in the community, so it's harder to mentally make them the enemy. But if they were going around shooting at people, make no mistake, it'd happen. – cHao Mar 03 '18 at 18:46
  • As for laws not helping, the government has to be seen as abiding by the laws it's set. A government that doesn't respect the rule of law won't be tolerated for long. – cHao Mar 03 '18 at 18:57
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    @cHao But isn't this the whole point? "All rights fail, government doesn't stand for (re)election, armed troops against population". This does not sound like your very lawful and lawfully tolerated government. And then you need your gun. The cited statement above justifies the Second Amendment's existence - in simplified terms - with the need of shooting your troops. And that leaves me puzzled. (To some extent.) – NightLightFighter Mar 03 '18 at 19:41
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    @NightLightFighter: I don't see the reason for the puzzlement; the two ideas are not contradictory. Support for the troops is not blind or unconditional. You can support the troops (now, for being good people doing good), hope you'll never have to fight them, but be ready in case you do (ie: if they go evil for whatever reason). Being ready doesn't just give you a better chance of winning, but of avoiding the fight completely and keeping them good (because they know they'd be risking their lives to fight you). – cHao Mar 03 '18 at 20:22
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    But America is a young country (230 years old). it's like the second oldest constitution dude. It's old relative to all but the UK. – user189035 Mar 04 '18 at 11:44
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    There weren't many constitutions before ours, but constitutions are a relatively new idea too. You don't need a constitution to have a country. – cHao Mar 04 '18 at 18:07
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    @user189035 The UK being a country lacking a written constitution heh. – Kaithar Mar 04 '18 at 18:44
  • @Kaithar: sure, never claimed it was written. – user189035 Mar 04 '18 at 21:42
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    “…were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations.” This is such horse-poo. Give every civilian in every crisis a gun and what do they still don’t have that armed troops have? Training and better weaponry. Civilians being led away to their death is a scenario where I highly doubt the initial pushback by shooting at the troops would be met by a stronger response. If a family of 4—mom, dad, daughter and son—is all armed how do you think they would fare against a small army of police/soldiers if they shot back? NewsFlash™: Instead of being led away they would be dead. – Giacomo1968 Mar 05 '18 at 02:10
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    As commented before, it needs to be emphasised that Judge Kozinski's opinion is a dissent, therefore not a precedent. – Szymon Mar 05 '18 at 04:31
  • @user189035 does make it a less useful example of a constitution country though. But to be fair, it's probably close enough to be accepted and I'm probably just splitting hairs on technicalities. I'm not enough of a legal expert to know how the unwritten constitution compares to a written one in terms of usefulness. – Kaithar Mar 05 '18 at 07:13
  • @Kaithar, lemme just nitpick: The UK does have written constitution(al law), but it's not codified. So you can read the written constitution but you must be a lawyer to understand it :-S – Iain Mar 05 '18 at 07:25
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    I've never understood this reasoning. How are a bunch of automatic rifles and some poorly trained wanne-be militia style men going to stop a government that has nuclear weapons, bombers and tanks readily at its disposal? If the US government truly wanted to oppress its own people, given its military arsenal, it very easily could, second amendment or otherwise. Times have changed since the 19th century. – Nobilis Mar 05 '18 at 10:25
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    @Nobilis: It could try. But as effective as that might be at crushing the immediate revolt, bombing your own taxpayers makes for a horrible long-term strategy. Like you said, times have changed. Optics matter now more than they ever did. That wannabe militia doesn't have to win (although it still has a nonzero chance) -- it simply has to put the government in the unenviable position of having to wage war against its own people, because anything less wouldn't be enough. – cHao Mar 05 '18 at 17:29
  • @Iain not really.. there's a difference between a written constitution like the US has and an unwritten constitution like the UK. A written constitution serves as a single strictly defined thing that is supplemented by legislative action, an unwritten constitution doesn't have that strictly defined bit which makes thing more complicated when dealing with challenges on a constitutional basis. – Kaithar Mar 12 '18 at 20:34
  • @Kaithar I think you're conflating "written" and "codified". Again, this is just a nitpick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncodified_constitution – Iain Mar 14 '18 at 00:36
  • @Iain um, the link you just provided says they're the same thing :p – Kaithar Mar 17 '18 at 04:04
  • The second amendment isn't a 'doomsday provision' any more (or less) that it is any other reason for existing. In other words, the reason it exists varies based on the opinion of who you ask, as the amendment, itself, is very vague. –  Apr 18 '18 at 19:42
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    I respectfully disagree. Consider reading Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers where he argues that a "well-regulated militia" is necessary for the defense of freedom in a free country. This argument, among others, led to the formation of the 2nd Amdt. @blip – Michael Benjamin Apr 19 '18 at 14:22
  • @Michael_B I don't think we disagree. As you state "This argument, among others...". We're saying the same thing. There is no one reason this amendment exists. There's no one interpretation of it, either. –  Apr 19 '18 at 16:34
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    "America is a young country (230 years old)." The U.S. has one of the oldest uninterrupted democratic regimes (at least in the Northern U.S.) in the world. Perhaps the top three to five. Most democratic regimes in existence today were formed or interrupted much more recently. – ohwilleke Apr 23 '18 at 16:50
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    @ohwilleke - US is not a democracy. Yet. Which is one of the reasons it still exists, actually. Democracy may have lofty name, but it is nothing more than a rule of mob. Founding Fathers knew exactly what were they doing, especially since some of them witnessed democracy in action in Polish Commonwealth at the time... –  Oct 15 '18 at 09:47
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    @Michael_B - what you're missing in your analysis is that Founding Fathers successfully fought and armed REBELLION against their lawful (regardless how questionable morally it was) government not long before. It is foolish to the extreme to forward the argument that 2A is mainly (which is not) for defense of the country from invasion. Some other papers written by other signatories clearly mention it is mainly a deterrence for any future US government. The fact that this amendment was fiercely contested, with at least 10 different versions over time says quite a lot. –  Oct 15 '18 at 09:52
  • @Michael_B - also, as I link in my answer, there was at least one situation when 2A was explicitly invoked in action against Federal Government. Your mistake is that you seem to take an "all or nothing approach". If i remember correctly there is a saying: "government encroachment upon people's rights". Study history: this happens gradually and/or on a small scale first. –  Oct 15 '18 at 09:59
  • @AcePL The U.S. has a democratic regime. If you think that this means "mob rule" you don't really understand what the words mean. – ohwilleke Oct 15 '18 at 10:14
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    @ohwilleke - democratic rule is divided roughly into democracy (which translates into, roughly "voice of the people"), of which Athenian democracy was a prime example. It is also called direct democracy. The other type is indirect democracy, which introduces a proxy for the populace. US is neither, because unlike democracy, there is a rule of law. At least on paper. In US there is no way to pass a law that does not apply to everyone equally, at least in theory. Which is in stark contrast to democracy, where the vote is law and that may be: "kill that one". Of course it's more complicated... –  Oct 15 '18 at 12:41
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    ...but my point is that either democracy is either an empty slogan, as most countries are indirect democracies with constitution (which makes them republics, which is not democratic system), or a mob rule. Or, as someone aptly described: a system where two wolves and a sheep vote who is going to be dinner. Hitler was "elected" chancellor democratically and his Nurenberg Laws were introduced democratically. Argue that one as "fair and just" to a Jew and you'll be laughed at. –  Oct 15 '18 at 12:47
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    @AcePL The definition of "democracy" that you are trying to impose is a grossly non-standard one. More commonly democracy is defined to mean any system of government in which the will of the people, usually expressed through elections, plays a role in how government is conducted. The rule of law is not inconsistent with a democratic system of government in any reasonable definition of the term. – ohwilleke Oct 15 '18 at 12:54
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    @ ohwilleke - I prefer the meaning the term had for last millenia than the one that was surreptitiously introduced just so that someone can argue just like you above - no matter what, theirs is the standard. Have you ever considered how utterly ridiculous is to call USA a democracy? Of whatever flavor? I love to see you arguing China, Russia or Turkey as democratic, then. How about Iraq - democratic state of sharia law is an oxymoron of a century? –  Oct 15 '18 at 13:09
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    @OHGODSPIDERS I used to think the 2nd amendment was pointless against the US military, but then we had the whole quagmire in Afghanistan. Decently armed locals seem to do very well against sophisticated militaries, regardless of their tech level. – yters Jul 22 '22 at 14:02
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The most recent event I can identify is the Battle of Athens. It was a direct confrontation with the corruption of the local government and efforts to rig the election to ensure the continuity of power. Recently returned veterans used their personal firearms to secure the ballot boxes and the court house, ensuring a free election.

Philipp
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Drunk Cynic
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    This wasn't a "fight against the US government", as specified in the question. This was an uprising against a local government. – Michael Benjamin Feb 28 '18 at 19:51
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    @Michael_B The armed actions followed attempts to get the Federal Government, via the US Department of Justice, to intervene. Given the failure of those efforts, armed insurrection was the remaining resort. – Drunk Cynic Feb 28 '18 at 19:55
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    @Michael_B probably this is not what the OP meant, but the local government is certainly part of the government, as its powers are a part of the "national" powers. It is certainly not part of the Federal Government, which is only a part of the government. – SJuan76 Feb 28 '18 at 20:31
  • Guys, I updated my question with clarification. – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Feb 28 '18 at 20:57
  • I was going to reference this one too. – Rob K Feb 28 '18 at 21:35
  • Thanks for the reference -- I'd never heard of any of this. – arp Mar 04 '18 at 21:42
  • While the question was for the "US government", implying to us Americans the federal government, I think this answer applies as the phrase could be understood as any American government of any level, and the Second Amendment recognizes citizens' rights of protection against corrupt governments at any level. – wberry Feb 22 '23 at 17:30
  • @DrunkCynic Agreed, I reposted it since I can't edit – wberry Feb 22 '23 at 17:30
  • As is often said, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb, contesting the vote." – hszmv Feb 27 '23 at 13:26
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To address your broader question, I think you, like many, many others, mistake the scope and intent of the Second Amendment. The amendment is not limited to enabling resistance of internal government tyranny and I think too many mistakenly focus solely on that aspect.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The amendment is about securing the free state against all threats, foreign as well as domestic, via a militarily capable citizenry.

Per the Supreme Court's ruling in US v. Miller:

The Constitution, as originally adopted, granted to the Congress power --

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress

With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces, the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

To secure our free state, we need a well regulated militia. The militia is in a general sense the segment of the populace capable of bearing arms. "A well regulated militia" means one that is armed and well versed in the use of those arms (not one that is heavily encumbered with rules-- "regulated" did not mean that in the 18th century like it does today).

US v. Miller again: "[T]he common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia -- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion."

To have a well regulated militia, one needs a populace that has access to arms and training with those arms. To secure the free state, the populace must be able to spring into action against invasion at a moment's notice-- hence the apocryphal quote attributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, that if Japan invaded the US, they would find "a rifle behind every blade of grass". If they are disarmed, they cannot do this.

US v. Miller again: "And further, that ordinarily, when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time" (emphasis added). It goes on to quote a number of founding-era laws requiring all men to be armed. (N.B. the Miller decision ruled that a "sawed-off" shotgun was not necessarily protected by the 2nd Amendment because "it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.")

The populace may also be less fit for service in the regular army if disarmed. Soldiers who have extensive prior experience with riflery are more valuable than those that don't, so civilian disarmament harms military readiness.

To secure our free state, we must have a well regulated militia. To have a well regulated militia, the people must be free to keep and bear arms.

Rob K
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    I believe your comment that those with "prior experience ... are more valuable..." to be highly subjective and likely incorrect. Being one with very little riflery experience allowed me to learn proper markmanship and be the company high shooter in USMC boot camp. Many of those with prior experience had poor habits that made them less able with a rifle than those who accepted proper instruction. So your conclusion that disarmament harms military readiness is actually backwards - without prior experience they learn properly and make military readiness better. – CramerTV Mar 01 '18 at 03:10
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    I've downvoted this answer because it doesn't address the question. There are likely other questions in this forum where the Importance and Details of the Second Amendment have been extrapolated. – Drunk Cynic Mar 01 '18 at 03:30
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    Downvoted this answer as it (1) doesn't answer the OP question and (2) appears to be your personal interpretation (because you provided no citations) – BobE Mar 01 '18 at 04:08
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    I upvoted this comment because it addresses the purpose of the 2nd admendment, for which understanding was lacking in the original question. Amendments give citizens freedoms and a legal standing to challenge the government's, at all levels, restriction of those freedoms. The freedoms (amendments) are used daily. Fortunately, government challenges to those freedoms are far less frequent. – Wes H Mar 01 '18 at 15:20
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    @BobE references added. – Rob K Mar 01 '18 at 15:42
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    Drunk Cynic and BobE are correct. I expect a concrete date or event or "never" as an answer. – Vanity Slug - codidact.com Mar 01 '18 at 15:50
  • "The populace may also be less fit for service in the regular army if disarmed. Soldiers who have extensive prior experience with riflery are more valuable than those that don't, so civilian disarmament harms military readiness." citation please – BobE Mar 02 '18 at 20:53
  • "To have a well regulated militia, the people must be free to keep and bear arms." --- Citation Please??? – BobE Mar 02 '18 at 20:55
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    @BobE did you not read the link? – Rob K Mar 02 '18 at 21:51
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    @Rob K, yes I read the link and it does not support either of the statements, no where in Miller does it state the populace is less fit if disarmed, nowhere does Miller conclude that a prerequisite for a army an armed population. – BobE Mar 03 '18 at 03:47
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    The Miller decision did not rule that a short shotgun was not protected by the 2nd Amendment; it ruled that the district court acted prematurely in dismissing the case without taking evidence on the gun's suitability for militia use. “Not within judicial notice” merely means that it's not so well known that the court may assume it true without hearing evidence. – Anton Sherwood Mar 04 '18 at 18:17
  • @BobE The claim isn't that an armed population is a prereq for an army -- the claim is that an armed population is a prereq for generating a militia. A militia is usually generated impromptu by civilians, so they must be armed. – Greg Schmit Mar 05 '18 at 00:20
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    @Greg "the claim is that an armed population is a prereq for generating a militia" - Where in Miller does it say that? And BTW, an impromptu civilian militia isn't that almost the antithesis of "well regulated" – BobE Mar 05 '18 at 05:16
  • @BobE It says that in 2a. You're confusing a standing army with a militia. If the militia stood when it wasn't needed then it wouldn't be a militia anymore. Also, read the part about "well-regulated" in the answer. – Greg Schmit Mar 05 '18 at 11:43
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Every day. The second amendment isn't exercised when someone pulls the trigger in an act of rebellion against the government; it's exercised whenever a civilian purchases a firearm. Actually using them is to be avoided as far as possible, but having them acts as a deterrent by creating the credible threat that strongarm tactics on the part of the government would be met with resistance. It's not necessary to be able to outgun the Army; it's only necessary to put the government in a position where, to put down dissent, it would have to shed an unpalatable amount of its own citizens' blood, thus eroding its legitimacy.

hobbs
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    What prevents governments of other similarly developed democratic nations with more restrictive gun laws than the US (basically all of them) to enforce “strongarm tactics” on their citizens then? – lejonet Mar 02 '18 at 20:20
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    @lejonet: Not much. And you see the result when, say, a guy is arrested for teaching his girlfriend's dog the Nazi salute as a joke. :P Do you think the cops would be willing to risk a gunfight over his being an ass? – cHao Mar 03 '18 at 19:14
  • @cHao Why have there been US government actions then, that have been labeled as „government overreach“? – lejonet Mar 04 '18 at 11:11
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    Because labeling is by definition no more than name-calling, and we're more civilized than to shoot our way out of every disagreement. – cHao Mar 04 '18 at 18:50
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    To those downvoting this answer: consider that the right guaranteed in the second amendment is "to keep and bear arms." It says nothing whatsoever about using them, much less about using them against the federal government (which is elsewhere defined by the constitution as the crime of treason). – phoog Feb 25 '23 at 21:41
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To answer the question as asked, as far as I know, the answer is "never".

The question itself, though, is based on a common misunderstanding of the intent of the 2nd amendment. Here's the text of the amendment, in full:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The people who claim the 2nd amendment is there to protect the people from the government tend to ignore the first half of that sentence. Or, they'll claim that "well regulated" simply means "well supplied" or "well provisioned", which is belied by this bit from Article I, Section 8 (describing the powers of Congress):

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clearly, "well regulated" means quite a bit more than just well provisioned.

In short, the 2nd amendment granted citizens the right to keep and bear arms in service of the state, not as protection from the state. At the time the Bill of Rights was drafted, the United States did not have a standing army of professional soldiers, and absolutely relied on state militias for defense and security. And while the US established a standing army rather quickly, the basic rationale for allowing citizens to own guns remained the same - to provide security for the state.

Of course that all went out the window with the Heller decision, which established gun ownership as an individual right unconnected to membership in a militia.

Frankly, the 2nd amendment could use some clarification, you just need to convince two-thirds of Congress to propose the amendment and get at least 38 state legislatures to approve it.

John Bode
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    "Frankly, the 2nd amendment could use some clarification" = that, alone, would be a fine answer to nearly all 2nd amendment questions that get posted. :) –  Apr 18 '18 at 19:50
  • The interpretations of the second amendment herein are historically inaccurate and rhetorically flawed. – Drunk Cynic Apr 20 '18 at 23:35
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    While one could agree that it "could use some clarification", simple parsing the text for logic proves your reply wrong. There are no qualifiers to either people or right to keep and bear arms and they're there for a reason. Also, you need a XVIIIth century dictionary to translate constitutional english into modern, because, to use Inigo Montoya's words: I do not think it means what you think it means." Also, perusing the on-the-topic of writings of the people who actually wrote it proves you wrong... For further reading: http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm –  Apr 23 '18 at 14:41
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    As further proof: Madison authorized ships to be armed with cannons (true, as a privateer, normal for time, but then again ship is clearly not militia) - http://www.1812privateers.org/United%20States/PRINCE/usmarq.html, and Marcellus Cassius Clay (a noted abolitionist and son of a slave-owner) also owned cannons for self defense: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uJglhLhGTwMC&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=marcellus+cassius+clay+cannons+proof&source=bl&ots=aWTnzcHmgD&sig=jKmfj_4yLpM5Z70qMBr-tnyJYSo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbope509DaAhVsCsAKHQxdDgMQ6AEIajAL –  Apr 23 '18 at 14:55
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    And last - we now know about no less than 10 draft versions of 2nd Am. The reading of them is very, very informative. I would love to see your defense of your refusal to Clay to protect himself by any means he felt were adequate (and even at level he chose to employ he felt they weren't). Clay is classic example of how to employ 2nd Am to protect one's own 1st Am. Again: love to see your argument to the contrary... –  Apr 23 '18 at 14:57
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Never. This has never happened, and cannot happen.

The Second Amendment ensures that the Militia can be armed so that it can be called up by the government to defend the United States as a whole, and each State individually.

The Militia that the Second Amendment refers to is described in the Constitution, Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power...

...To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Each State's Militia is a State (government) armed force. Each State's Militia has officers appointed by that State, and the members of each State's Militia are trained by that State according to the rules passed by Congress.

The National Guard is organized under Congress' power to raise armies, not to command the Militia. This bypasses the requirement that States appoint Militia officers, a power that was used to hand out honorary titles as political favors to individuals such as "Colonel Sanders" of KFC.

The Militia is reference again in Article II, Section 2:

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; ...

These passages establish that the Militia are the armed forces of "the several States", and as such are under the command of either a State or the President of the United States.

The Whiskey Rebellion is actually a perfect example of the opposite of an instance where an armed rebellion successfully exercised its supposed "Second Amendment rights". The President of the United States, George Washington, exercised his powers as Commander in Chief of the Militia, called up the Militia to "execute the Laws of the Union [and] suppress [an] Insurrection". The Militia acted as an arm of the Government to disperse a rebellion against the Laws of the Union. The rebels fled.

The concept of the State Militia is now almost entirely obsolete. The closest modern equivalents of organized State Militias are State defense forces. Because State Militias can be called up by the Federal Government, State defense forces are not State Militias, per 32 U.S.C. §109(c).

Note that the Constitution grants Congress the power "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia..." (emphasis added). There was dramatically more distrust between the States at the time than there is now, and some were concerned that Congress could deliberately fail to arm one or another State's militia. The Second Amendment provides that should Congress fail to provide for arming the militia of one or more States, the States could do so themselves.

Therefore, the Second Amendment does not now, nor has it ever protected an individual's right to "keep and bear arms" to defend themselves from the government. It only protects a collective right of members of the militia to "keep and bear arms" in service of the government.

The notion that the Second Amendment is in some way a means of defending against the government is a pernicious myth spread by the gun manufacturing lobby in order to sell more and more guns to a smaller and smaller proportion of the population, which has also been effectively hijacked by anti-government extremist groups to foster fear and paranoia.

The result that mass shootings are now a daily occurrence is a side effect that the gun industry couldn't care less about.

See https://gdrthinktank.org/2021/02/01/the-myth-of-the-second-amendment/ for more details of the history of lying about the Second Amendment for profit.

Clement Cherlin
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    If what you were saying was true, then everything needed would have already been in the un-amended Constitution, and there would have been no cause for the second amendment (which is in the Bill of Rights, which is that doohickey which is, as a whole, about explicit, personal rights and constraining the Federal power, and not about empowering Congress to do its assigned duties.) – hobbs Jun 03 '21 at 16:44
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    @hobbs The Second Amendment does constrain Congress: It constrains Congress from depriving a state of the ability to arm its state militia, which is a constraint not in the un-amended Constitution. It places no such constraints upon states or localities. Courts have misinterpreted the Second Amendment to strike down state and local firearm laws for ideological reasons unrelated to the text or history of the amendment. – Clement Cherlin Jun 07 '21 at 15:10
  • This understanding of the second amendment is perfectly wrong. The reason for these powers in the Constitution to call up the militia is because until the 20th century the nation had no permanent military force. Our only army and navy were the people themselves. "The militia is the whole people." This does not in any way nullify the right and duty of a free people to throw off a corrupt and illiberal government that turns against the people. – wberry Feb 22 '23 at 15:56
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    @hobbs I would suggest looking at the gun control laws in the country during the years following the signing of the constitution and ask your self how many of them would be considered legal under the current court system. https://theconversation.com/five-types-of-gun-laws-the-founding-fathers-loved-85364 – Joe W Feb 25 '23 at 16:45
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Whiskey Rebellion of 1791 - it's almost a classic example of the employing of the 2nd Amendment against federal government, mostly by veterans of the Revolutionary War few years earlier.

Somehow the Second Amendment was not called to question by Founding Fathers after that...

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    It is, though the fact that George Washington marched out at the head of an army to suppress it tells you how the founding fathers actually felt about the right to bear arms against the government – divibisan Jun 03 '21 at 04:14
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    @divibisan another clue as to their feelings is that the constitution defines "levying war against the United States" as treason. – phoog Feb 25 '23 at 21:48
  • Worth noting that the Second Amendment was only ratified on December 15, 1791, which was after the Whiskey Rebellion had commenced. – ohwilleke Feb 27 '23 at 22:09
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Today. Just as the Legislative doesn't have to pass a law in order to b doing its job, and the Judicial doesn't have to rule on a case to be doing its, the rights of the people do their job simply by existing. You wouldn't say we could do without the first ammendment just because no one criticized the government today, because the right of the people to criticized the government is in part what limits the powers of the goverment. It's existence, regardless of any particular exercise, impacts and limits the government.

jmoreno
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Effectively, the Civil War was a fight by the confederate states to protect what they considered their constitutional rights against the federal government, although they did not claim the 2nd amendment.

Jonathan Rosenne
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    This doesn't address the question, and also ignores the plain fact that the only "states right" that the confederacy actually cared about was the right to keep slaves. – Paul Johnson Mar 24 '19 at 15:46
  • @PaulJohnson: yeah, but the irony is that slavery was legal in the US at the time. So it was in the "rights" for someone to claim to protect it, although one could hardly call that a freedom, in later/modern terms, to have slaves. (OTOH many later arguments were equating freedom with "our way of life".) It was the (perceived) threat that the new government was going to change that which led to the rebellion. So this answer is in a sense correct, but it also illustrates a major weakness in the question. – the gods from engineering Feb 26 '23 at 23:12
  • @PaulJohnson: OTOH this answer is actually bad for a different reason. Not only was the threat of change more perceived than real at the beginning of the rebellion, but there was no real indication the Federal government was going to do it by extra-legal/tyrannical means. Complaining that legal changes to the Constitution are "tyranny" is very YMMV, especially for something like this (abolishing slavery), although in some other countries [like Germany in the 1930s] tyranny in the proper sense of the word came in through quasi-legal means. But nothing quite like that in US history, so far. – the gods from engineering Feb 26 '23 at 23:27
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No one has yet answered with the semi-recent infamous standoffs between federal agencies and groups of citizens in the American west who wanted only to be left alone. In both incidents, one or more citizens were suspected of non-violent crimes, and in both cases the citizens under suspicion may very well have deserved that suspicion, but there was no credible or even alleged threat of actual violence until the jack boots were applied. In both incidents citizens took up arms to protect themselves and their loved ones from excessive government force and innocents were killed by federal agents as a result.

  1. 1992 - Ruby Ridge, ID

A citizen was charged with an illegal firearms modification in federal court. He was mistakenly informed by mail of the wrong court date to appear and multiple attempts were made to inform him of the correct earlier date. When he did not appear a bench warrant was issued. Federal law enforcement began a tactical operation against him. Agents surprised him in the woods and there was a shootout followed by a siege of his home. A sniper shot and killed his wife through the window while she was holding her baby. His son and a US Marshal were also killed in the incident. Later there was a civil settlement against the government and a Congressional inquiry. The citizen was even eventually acquitted of the original firearms charge but convicted of failure to appear.

  1. 1993 - The massacre of the Branch Davidians near Waco, TX

The Branch Davidians had many of the hallmarks of a dangerous cult, including polygamy, child marriage and isolation. The ATF and FBI obtained affidavits accusing them of illegally assembling fully automatic firearms and decided to raid them. The way they prepared for the raid and executed it leaves many questions about the intentions, motives and thought process behind it.

They tried to ambush the compound with tactical officers, armored vehicles and air support. Shots were fired with casualties on both sides. The feds surrounded their compound and the standoff lasted for some time. The final result was that the complex was burned and many lives were lost - men, women and children. The cult leader David Koresh also died. No evidence of a credible threat was ever presented to the public that would have justified such a mass slaughter.

It is not necessary to defend the beliefs and practices of the Branch Davidians to question the unmoderated aggression of the federal and state agencies in this incident. The sum of it is, the government turned their eye on a religious community that aroused their suspicions, attacked them and killed them when they refused to submit to plainly unjustified violations of their rights. The possibility of a mass casualty event was always considered preferable to simply leaving them alone. It is difficult not to suspect that killing them could have been the government's true objective. Even the child marriage aspect, which to me is the most concerning, was not the legal basis for the raid and did not seem to be the focus of the government actions. The agencies were willing to use noxious gases and even open fire on positions where they knew innocent children were present.

In the cases of Ruby Ridge, ID and Waco, TX, citizens took up arms to resist acts of perceived tyranny by the federal government, and the result was tragedy. These cases serve as warnings. While it can probably never be known what would have happened had they laid down their arms instead and submitted, the cost of standing their ground was surely greater. Was it worth it?

wberry
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  • Just because you have conflict between people and government agencies doesn't mean it is use of the second amendment to protect their rights. – Joe W Feb 25 '23 at 16:47
  • They took up arms against the government to protect their freedom. That's exactly what the question was asking for. In the title. I don't see the problem here. – wberry Feb 27 '23 at 13:47
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    Taking up arms against law enforcement officials who are coming to enforce the law doesn't mean you are taking up arms to protect your freedom. – Joe W Feb 27 '23 at 14:05
  • Well that's kind of the point isn't it? Tyrants always have unjust laws or edicts on their side. Your comment ignores the central issue at hand. – wberry Mar 03 '23 at 15:15
  • That would only work if there is evidence of unjust laws or edicts being present in the case and it isn't surprising that people who are breaking the laws would try to claim that the laws are unjust. I can't recall many claims that what those groups did was okay, just issues with how everything turned out. – Joe W Mar 03 '23 at 15:35
  • The second amendment is what makes it okay to resist tyrants with force of arms. That's the entire point of it. When government exceeds its lawful authority, it is the government, not the armed citizen, that is in rebellion against the law. – wberry Mar 05 '23 at 04:41
  • And that doesn't mean every criminal resisting arrest is defending themselves from the tyranny of government,. I am simply stating that I don't see either of the examples you gave as them defending themselves from the tyranny of government but law enforcement raids gone wrong. – Joe W Mar 05 '23 at 06:05
  • Correct, the crux of the issue is whether the law enforcement actions were justified or not. Not even whether their actions were justified by the facts of the case, that's what criminal courts are for, but instead whether they even had proper legal authority and procedural authorization to do what they did at all. Given that there were Congressional inquiries, civil lawsuits against federal law enforcement with varying levels of success, etc. it can be reasonably concluded that the federal agencies were out of line in these cases. And if so, it was the agencies who were in rebellion. – wberry Mar 05 '23 at 11:02
  • And I am suggesting that these cases are not examples of the second amendment being used but criminal raids gone wrong when the targets fight back and are willing to die over it. – Joe W Mar 05 '23 at 15:58