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I have two questions regarding monopolies in a capitalistic society:

  1. According to Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell, among other Chicago School economists, under purely market forces monopolies will naturally not be sustainable for long. When I'm trying to defend a libertarian state that does not interfere with the free market, monopolies will come up regularly as an example of something that the government will need to interfere with. How viable is the libertarian view that monopolies will naturally go away?

  2. All the examples of monopolies that I have found are created by the government, or at least aided by it in large ways. Are there any counterexamples? If not, why not?

Alexis Purslane
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    Should be migrated to [Economics.SE]. – gerrit Nov 02 '17 at 08:47
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    If you want an easy to read but thorough understanding largely from the perspective of the Chicago School, I definitely recommend Thomas Sowell's "Basic Economics." There is a good chapter in concerning monopolies and much of it revolves around defining what constitutes a monopoly and what may be conflated with a monopoly. – mkingsbu Nov 02 '17 at 13:26
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    I didn't know there was much of an argument as to whether a monopoly could naturally grow or not. There's certain realities that we have to live with. Either a society has a government, or it has anarchy. If it has a government, it will have businesses who lobby that government to create regulations. It's not like politicians say 'hey, how can i create a monopoly for the fun of it' - so while you say every monopoly is created by government - the reality is, every monopoly is created by a business/rich person, who lobbies a person of public power, to create regulations that decrease competition – Justin Beagley Nov 02 '17 at 17:33
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    While it's true, some regulations that were well intended by government officials could lead to a decrease in competition in a market. The solution to this isn't deregulation, the solution is accountability. But regardless, i think you'll find that the majority of monopolies 'created' by government, were actually created by businesses lobbying government. Get rid of crony capitalism for a year and see how many monopolies a government creates then. After that, if government is still creating monopolies left and right - i'll stand corrected and convert back to libertarianism. – Justin Beagley Nov 02 '17 at 17:38
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    Deregulation is just a circular solution. You might find good honest politicians every once in awhile who want to get rid of regulations that create an unfair market advantage (bernie sanders pharma bill) - and maybe you'll get rid of a lot of bad regulations... but once those good politicians are gone - they'll be replaced by politicians who only care about money - and you'll get those regulations right back. – Justin Beagley Nov 02 '17 at 17:41
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    @JustinBeagley, crony capitalism is still the government doing things, whether it's on behalf of corporations or not. The point is that corporations couldn't do that kind of stuff on their own, so they have to get the government to do it. If you had a government that couldn't do that kind of thing or at least didn't have a precedent for that (regulation, grant special exceptions) then you wouldn't even get crony capitalism. And the dichotomy you set up between 'anarchy' and 'government' is false. You can have a government that corps can't lobby for such things. It's called 'small gov.' – Alexis Purslane Nov 02 '17 at 22:08
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    @JustinBeagley - and you have just clearly stated one of the best arguments for less government ever concieved. "Imagine if the next guy with access to this much power you wanted grabbed is the guy whose policies (or person) you hate". – user4012 Nov 02 '17 at 22:44
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    I don't have data to defend it, but I find all of the free market arguments make assumptions about how the world works that are demonstrably wrong. Most arguments are generally challenged by questioning what actually defines the line between the government and a corporation. I find typically the discussion agrees that non-violent free markets can only exist in the presence of a government like enditity. – Cort Ammon Nov 02 '17 at 23:33
  • @user4012 - doesn't sound like you actually understood what i said. You either have government, or you have anarchy. If you have government, you will, always, it's inevitable, have people with money, lobbying them to create regulations that benefit their business by reducing competition in their market. Your solution of less government is circular. If you acheieved less government today, you'd lose it tomorrow by the mass amount of rich people showing up to that small government lobbying them to get bigger. – Justin Beagley Nov 02 '17 at 23:46
  • @ChristopherDumas i feel like i'm speaking in circles here. This is unbelievable. You're seriously suggesting that businesses would not be able to lobby government, if government were small? Also, you don't understand what a false dichotomy is. A false dichotomy is when 2 options are given, where a 3rd is present. If society doesn't have a government or authoritative body, please tell me what structure society has if not anarchy? The point of me saying 'gov or anarchy' is to point out the obvious fact - if you have gov, no matter how small, you will have rich people lobbying their influence – Justin Beagley Nov 02 '17 at 23:55
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    JB, you are making a false dichotemy between big government, with the capability to interfere in the free market, and anarchy, where there is no government, by implying that the only kind of gov is big. A government with a constitutional or structural limitation (or a government that treated the powers listed in the Constitution as a list, not a starting point) that doesn't allow it to interfere would not have "rich people lobbying their influence," because that would be a waste of time. And just because businesses lobby doesn't mean the government has to listen to them! – Alexis Purslane Nov 03 '17 at 00:05
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    And most corporations don't lobby for regulations to exist, they would rather them not be there. Yet, by definition regulations make it harder to get into a market, making it more likely to get a monopoly or duopoly. – Alexis Purslane Nov 03 '17 at 00:06
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    @ChristopherDumas PS. 'corporations couldn't build monopolies on their own' - So in your utopian fantasy of free markets and small government, you can't fathom why two large companies would agree to not compete in certain territories, so they can hike up their prices together? (comcast, TWC are currently doing this) - what? you think once government is out of the way that they'll just stop what their doing? Libertarians are as naive about free-markets as communists are about government. – Justin Beagley Nov 03 '17 at 00:11
  • @ChristopherDumas - no, actually i'm not suggesting that the only government that can exist is big government. I'm saying that as long as lobbying is legal, you will eventually have big government (unless, as you suggested there are regulations in place - such as making lobbying illegal) - but if you're referring to the current US system, there is absolutely methods for introducing new laws/regulations into society. And the constitution and bill of rights was written that way... so i don't know what you mean by 'a government that treated the powers as a list rather than a starting point' – Justin Beagley Nov 03 '17 at 00:14
  • @ChristopherDumas unless you're suggesting that government is making unconstitutional laws - which, i would love to see your source on that. – Justin Beagley Nov 03 '17 at 00:14
  • @ChristopherDumas - wait... you don't think businesses lobby government for certain regulations to exist? Please tell me what you think businesses receive when they lobby our government? – Justin Beagley Nov 03 '17 at 00:16
  • @JustinBeagley as far as the current constitution, your 100% right, I'm just saying that if there were a libertarian government it would have to treat its constitutional powers as a list, not a starting point. And also, the current government isn't doing anything explicitly unconstitutional, but it's clearly not limited to the powers enumerated there. And as far as your point on corporations colluding, they can't keep doing that forever, which is the point of the libertarian argument about monopolies. Have you read up on this before jumping in? – Alexis Purslane Nov 03 '17 at 00:18
  • @JustinBeagley I said most. – Alexis Purslane Nov 03 '17 at 00:18
  • @ChristopherDumas 'have you read up on this before jumping in' - i used to be a libertarian. Never once heard that government policies would be immutable. (although, i guess taken to it's logical conclusion the NAP would essentially be the only needed policy - right?). lol - and no - those corps could absolutely keep doing that for forever - unless you care to tell me the regulation that would exist in a libertarian society that would prevent them from doing that for forever. – Justin Beagley Nov 03 '17 at 00:24
  • As a question about the role of the government in shaping policy, based on an economic theory, this is incontrovertibly and emphatically on-topic on this site. – wrod Jun 23 '23 at 07:15

9 Answers9

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There is not an invisible market force that makes monopolies go away. In fact, the longer that a monopoly operates unabated, the more reserve cash it accumulates, the more it refines its infrastructure and process, the more brand recognition it continuously accumulates. So the longer a monopoly exists, the harder it is to compete with it, and the easier they will be able to crush you Rockefeller-style if you attempt to move into their market.

For instance, if a monopolistic corporation were accumulating $13 billion in total equity each year due to net income = $13 billion, and they accumulated a war chest of $130 billion over a 10-year period of time in which they were an unopposed monopoly, then by the time a competitor tried to move in on them, the former monopoly could afford to lower its prices low enough to make negative profit for many years until the competitor folded. Considering that the competitor likely had smaller capital to begin with, the fact that they had to eat substantial training costs to get up and running, the fact that they didn't have an established distribution network, the fact that they didn't have established brand recognition, the fact that they started up with sub-optimal processes; the competitor would be forced to charge higher prices due to inefficiency. In an act of undercutting the competition, the former monopoly may charge $1.90 for an item that costs $2.00 to produce, and can afford to operate at a loss like that for many years; meanwhile the competitor may not be able to produce the item for less than $2.30 due to inefficiency, and likely lacks the capital to operate at a loss, so they can't charge less than $2.30, and may also not get any sales by charging the clearly higher price for an item that is likely lower in quality, not higher. These undercutting tactics are what led to John Rockefeller becoming the richest American in the nation's history, accumulating wealth equal to 1.52% of America's GDP, before the federal government ruled Standard Oil an illegal monopoly.

Having said that, different industries have different barriers for entry. A landscaping business or a snow cone stand can more reasonably try to make a move on an established company. But you can't simply compete with a telecom company like Comcast by laying down your own fiber city-wide. They laid down that fiber back when they were the only game in town, they knew they would have a 100% market share, and they knew they could charge monopolistic prices like $100/month; so the cost-benefit analysis was agreeable to them at that time. But if you try to move in on them by spending $1 billion of your own money to lay down duplicate fiber in a city to try to gain a 37-40% market share at competitive prices like $85/month; the cost-benefit analysis for you is going to discourage you from attempting this. Your profit margins as a competitor are likely not going to cover your loan interest in the way that their profit margins as a monopoly had covered their loan interest. Even if you did try to make a move on Comcast in a single city by somehow borrowing $1 billion, they could just leverage their $8.7 billion net income to undercut you in that city until you fold. They could even give their services away for free in that city until you folded, because the millions of dollars per year that they would lose in the short-term don't even make a dent in their $8.7 billion net income, and once you've folded, they can jack their prices back up and resume making $6 million per year in that city.

Now as far as whether a monopoly is inherently a bad thing... As long as the barriers to entry to compete with a monopoly are substantial, a monopoly can get away with charging far above the cost of production for a product, and people will still pay the inflated price in many cases. For instance, I think Comcast is unethical, I don't want to give them any money, and I still do give them money, because I also do insist on having high-speed internet. In the short-term, the harm of monopoly is that it causes the consumers to lose extra money for no additional value in return, and it becomes one additional variable in the poverty cycle that traps tens of millions (e.g. the extra money they are wasting on patronizing monopolies could have gone towards having a positive balance in their bank account and prevented them from being hit by overdraft fees). In the long-term, the harm of monopoly is that the stakeholders of the monopoly are accruing increasingly sizable wealth, and eventually gain enough resource to own multiple monopolies and/or merge massive corporations together, leading to a few people who own everything. As the wealth inequality gap widens and few people own everything, everybody else essentially becomes economically enslaved and lose significant personal liberty, as well as the ability to gain any economic resources to make any sort of capital investment or business venture. As a Libertarian, that last part would probably bother you, but you probably won't acknowledge that it could happen in the first place if you have unreasonably rigid faith that invisible market forces magically fix everything just because they just do.

Edit: I would like to add one more point that wasn't originally in this post. The more Libertarian the government, the lower the overall tax rates, and therefore the more rapidly that wealth inequality widens. For some corporations, Libertarian tax codes could lead to the highest-earning corporations paying $3-30 billion less income taxes each year than they currently pay. This would likely lead to more monopolies in the following ways... -Companies with vastly greater net income and war chests have more money to buyout their competition. We have seen mergers and/or acquisitions where AT&T, Time Warner, DirecTV, BellSouth, and T-Mobile have all combined into one corporation. But if you have a corporation with massive revenue, forget about merging, it can outright purchase other corporations the way that Apple has recently been trying to do with Disney. If ExxonMobil wasn't paying $31 billion per year in income taxes, it could afford to buyout multiple Fortune 500 corporations each year, which would lead to its net income climbing by multiple billions per year, making it increasingly easy to buyout even more competitors. -While the most prosperous corporations and their stakeholders would be getting exponentially wealthier, everyone else would be possessing less wealth. I.e. if the top 10 corporations possess 60% of the nation's wealth, then everyone else possesses the other 40%. But if the top 10 corporations possess 90% of the nation's wealth, then everyone else possesses the other 10%. So while corporations like ExxonMobil or Apple would be increasingly hoarding all of the currency in the nation, no one else is going to be able to marshal enough resources to start-up a competing business.

Also, I just want to point out that some of the comments in this thread have attempted to argue that few, if any, monopolies have formed without the assistance of government intervention. But I would prefer to counter that the American federal government has worked to prevent the formation of monopolies since the late 19th century (Sherman Act, Clayton Act, FTC Act 1914, etc.). This is why few examples of true monopolies emerge in America, and therefore why it is difficult to find examples of perfect monopolies in America that either support or contradict either side.

John
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    You don't compete with Comcast by laying down fibre in an entire city, you start with a single block or an apartment building. – Reasonably Against Genocide Nov 02 '17 at 02:39
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    @immibis Unless that apartment building is inside a tier 1 hub, that won't really work. – Shane Nov 02 '17 at 02:43
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    Note that the reason that Comcast is a monopoly is precisely because substantial barriers in addition to capital costs are present. The two most common are local franchise agreements, in which incumbents lie that they'll provide service in exchange for an outright monopoly, and pole attachment rules that would make Yossarian happy. – chrylis -cautiouslyoptimistic- Nov 02 '17 at 03:53
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    barriers to entry/exit(Comcast example), Information asymmetry(do you know the quality of product as much as the producer so that you can decide the price?), factor mobility or division of labor(there are a lots of engineers now so let me do some medical doctoring) are some solid natural problems of free market(even without government intervention) – Gorkem Nov 02 '17 at 07:23
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    @immibis if you start with a single block, you miss economies of scale. For example, maybe you only get one or two support calls a month from that apartment building, but you still need to contract some tech support that you have to pay for even if they are mostly doing nothing. – SJuan76 Nov 02 '17 at 08:39
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    @SJuan76 I think you have the reverse problem in that you're forgetting about economies of not scale. For instance, not having to lay down an entire city's worth of fibre before getting any revenue. You can handle 1-2 tech support calls a month by yourself, right? – Reasonably Against Genocide Nov 02 '17 at 22:18
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    @immibis But then who will have time to negotiate for access to the channels for this budding cable company? I mean you might be able to get Channel 10 Aurora Cable Access (Wayne's World) but HBO won't give you the time of day. As is ever the case, there is/will be a club and you are not in it. – Ukko Nov 03 '17 at 17:00
  • @Ukko I was thinking of Internet, not cable TV. Yes, media in general has much bigger barriers to entry. – Reasonably Against Genocide Nov 04 '17 at 06:24
  • @Ukko Also if I did want to provide cable TV, I wouldn't just assume HBO won't want to negotiate with me, until I'd actually tried it. – Reasonably Against Genocide Nov 04 '17 at 06:52
  • Interesting claims. Is there any research you can point to for evidence? – sgf Nov 06 '17 at 12:43
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As requested in comments, converting my own comments to a brief answer:

First of all, there's no generic concept of "monopoly" and thus libertarian views on such will vary. The following aspects of monopolistic situations are distinct:

1. "Natural" monopolies

Most frequent argument by proponents of antitrust and those using "monopoly" as argument against libertarian ideas are so-called "natural" monopolies. These are typically things like utility companies.

"The Myth of Natural Monopoly" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo rebuts this view this in detail. In short,

  • Nearly every case of "natural" monopoly known is merely a result of government interference - either direct one by granting exclusive rights or contracts; or indirect one by unre-pricing scarce public resources (e.g. right to place infrastructure in public spaces).

2. Monopolies of consumer choice

If a company provides consumers with the product they universally prefer over their competitors (e.g. by price), this is not intrinsically a bad thing that needs to be rectified, since this situation does not lead to any of the tangible problems that are stated to arise out of monopoly.

The moment they start abusing their monopoly by raising prices above what consumers find comfortable, they cease being in a position to be able to sustain that monopoly as a competitor can then enter the market.

(not to even go into an innovation tangent - a competitor may simply come up with a better product that justifies higher price for consumers).

3. Monopolies that enforce their monopoly status by force.

There are claims that Standard Oil did this. I'm not versed enough to be sure if those claims are true; but if they are such actions are contrary to libertarian principles of NAP and therefore would be prohibited regardless of monopoly-angle.

Additional resources (sadly, youtube videos):

user4012
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Philipp Nov 02 '17 at 16:50
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    Microsoft is the better counter example: No regulation stops you from installing any O.S. There are FREE alternatives like Linux. A lot of people complain about windows. You PAY Microsoft indirectly when you buy the computer and if you ask a Linux computer they ask you for more money.

    Of course you can always say that a product is better if people buy it even if forced by monopoly. And people buy so all monopolies are a type 2 by this semantic "trick". But people are still FORCED to buy Microsoft in non-apple PCs.

    – borjab Nov 02 '17 at 19:10
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    I think mentioning network effects might be a good idea. Imagine social media for example (let's pick Facebook?), it's difficult to become a competitor simply because the competitor site is useless until your friends/family switched too. – Matthieu M. Nov 02 '17 at 19:45
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    @borjab - I would recommend you talk to people who actually are experts on the topic, since the above is rather incorrect. I can rattle off 5 retailers selling MS free PCs (linux or barebones). Then again, I also built my own PCs as often as buy off the shelf, if not more often. So no, for the last, say, 5 or even 10 years nobody is "forced" to buy Microsoft, and they never were even before. Oh, and also it's not "non-apple" anymore either. Chromebooks run Chrome OS (which is Linux underneath) and are quite popular and cheap. – user4012 Nov 02 '17 at 22:27
  • @MatthieuM. - that argument makes sense on the surface until you remember 2 things: (1) people used to say the same thing about MySpace. Until Facebook managed to break their monopoly (2) Nobody is forced to use Facebook. There's this thing called "real life" where people communicate, like they did before Facebook came along. Plenty of people don't bother to use Facebook (<== raises hand) – user4012 Nov 02 '17 at 22:30
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    @user4012 I think borjab is referring to Microsoft's promotion to large manufacturers where windows was sold at an (arguably) uneconomically low price - so long as it was installed (or at least paid for) on all machines. This led to manufacturers having to charge more for Linux than Windows (they had to pay MS for Windows, then install Linux at extra cost to them). Classic abuse of monopoly - and a monopoly that government had very little role in creating. Yes, individuals can buy components and small companies don't get the preferential rates but that doesn't disprove the argument – mcottle Nov 03 '17 at 03:14
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    @user4012 is right. Microsoft can offer a better price to manufacturers that only offer their products. That is only one example of a very frequent strategy: raise barriers. It can make the customers hard to change products or hard to the competitors to enter. It is another example of inefficiency as a company is spending money trying to make life harder. Example: Apple has incentives to spend money to develop propietary accesories that will grant a monopoly on them. That is another effect: one monopoly in one market can lead to another. Ej. Microsoft forced the use of IE for years. – borjab Nov 03 '17 at 08:53
  • @mcottle - the fact that they could install Linux by definition makes Microsoft NOT a monopoly in the first place. Dominant player? yes. Monopoly? no. Underpricing competition on one product is like... normal tactic in 100% of industries (ever heard of Black Friday? It's not about selling things cheaper, it's about locking in consumers to your store so you can sell them expensive non-BF products). – user4012 Nov 03 '17 at 11:10
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    Can you edit to clarify: Is the gist that Capitalist Libertarians assume the state is always imposing itself and distorting the market, and it could never be the other way around? Seems like point one in particular is assuming this, when often business meddles in politics for profitable ends. They reject the idea that government meddling in markets is itself a natural consequence of market activity? –  Nov 03 '17 at 17:06
  • I think talking about what prices consumers “find comfortable” could be a bit misleading. For example, the Nintendo 3DS costs about twice as much as a phone with comparable hardware and superior software. Much of the cost, if it isn’t pure profit, is designing the handheld to make piracy very difficult - a definite inefficiency. Are consumers comfortable with this? No. But since they like playing Nintendo games, they’ll pay up anyway, at least until the price becomes much higher. – Obie 2.0 Nov 05 '17 at 05:30
  • In other words, that consumers must be happy because otherwise they’d switch isn’t necessarily true. All that we can say is that they’d be more unhappy if they switched or stopped using a product. People aren’t happy they have to pay twice parts and labor for a 3DS, but their demand for Nintendo games is fairly inelastic. – Obie 2.0 Nov 05 '17 at 05:37
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All the examples of monopolies that I have found are created by the government, or at least aided by it in large ways. Are there any counterexamples? If not, why not?

As you note, one possibility is that monopolies are not natural and can only create the necessary barriers with government help.

The other possibility is simply that before the company becomes large enough to become a monopoly, it is large enough to be significantly impacted by government action and to afford a lobbyist. So the company hires a lobbyist to protect itself from the government. But once it has the lobbyist, the lobbyist will tend to advocate for favorable treatment from the government, not just an absence of negative treatment. So then the company becomes "aided by it in large ways."

It is difficult to say whether the company would have been able to become a monopoly without government intervention. Every example is going to be able to show government involvement. Because the government is that involved in every company.

Government also creates economies of scale. For example, most companies have a number of people to ensure that they are in regulatory compliance. But it doesn't necessarily take more people for a larger company. It takes more people for a larger government. As such, a larger company can better afford to hire a full staff to learn how to comply with the necessary regulations.

Smaller companies make do with less and are subject to occasionally finding out that they are not in compliance. Then they find themselves with a huge, unanticipated bill (or criminal charges). They often go out of business as a result. This adds risk to their business model, so financing is more expensive for a small company.

Beyond all this, there are other options to handle monopolies than antitrust action. The problem with a monopoly is that it causes prices to be higher and the quantity sold to be lower than the market equilibrium. This creates a loss of producer and consumer surplus and switches some consumer surplus to producer surplus. But regulation also causes a loss of total surplus.

In a Coasean society, consumers and producers could make a bargain that increases the surplus for both back closer to the original level. Such a bargain might be preferable to the regulatory solution, even though it favors the producer over the consumer relative to the pure market solution.

To test these hypotheses, we would need an actual libertarian society. As is, we only test hybrid forms. There's no true communist society where everything is owned by the state. There's no true libertarian society where all law is enforcement of contracts. There are hybrid societies that lean more or less towards one or the other. But hybrids are missing the theoretical ways to resolve conflict that exist in the pure forms.

What we actually have are a variety of market systems where the government sometimes interferes. In some cases, the government interferes a lot. In some cases, it only interferes a little. But even in the communist Soviet Union there was still a black market. And even in the capitalist United States, there has always been regulation.

TL;DR: we don't really know, because we have no examples of a market without government.

Brythan
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    I suppose one could argue that the black market is an example of one but then it has just as many economic distortions thanks to artificial scarcity caused by law enforcement. – Kenneth Cochran Nov 01 '17 at 20:34
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    @KennethCochran Is law enforcement destroying your crop of cocaine economically meaningfully different than a hurricane destroying your crop instead? – Shane Nov 02 '17 at 14:45
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    I can call law enforcement anonymously to get them to put my competitor out of business. I cannot direct a hurricane. And beyond that, a black market is not a libertarian market. I can't take my black market supplier to court and complain that the cocaine wasn't pure enough and ask for a refund. Black markets and feudal societies are not libertarian markets constrained only by capitalist forces and not government. They are governed by thuggery. That's the reverse of a libertarian government. – Brythan Nov 02 '17 at 15:01
  • @Brythan Why do you think that the courts would help? Assuming that there was not an binding arbitration clause to begin with, the cost of litigation would be such that you could not find a lawyer to take the case.Litigation only really is an option between approximately equally wealthy entities. Otherwise the cost of pursuing action by itself will determine who will win. – Ukko Nov 02 '17 at 20:17
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What do you mean by counter examples in point 2? Monopolies broken up by the government would be the opposite of examples created by the government. Microsoft of the early/mid 90s is an obvious example here. The tech world would look very different today if Microsoft hadn't been forced to change its business practices. The break up of the phone monopolies is another high profile example.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for monopolies that exist and were not help or hindered by the government, well, that's a pretty high -- and unreasonable bar.

First off, what constitutes a monopoly? 50% control of the market? 75%? 90%? 99%? Only 100% control counts as a monopoly, anything less is considered competition? Then what constitutes a market? There's a lot of food in the world. Do I have a monopoly if I control 100% of the corn market? What about if it is only 100% of one specific breed of corn?

Secondly, the idea that there could be monopolies without government intervention is difficult to fathom because the governments have intervened in everything. It is ALWAYS possible to trace any company back to the government. The discovery of America was financed by the spanish government, after all. If I come up with an invention, get it patented, then create a monopolistic company, is that government intervention? I never would have been able to outcompete the established players without the government enforcing patent law. But, I'm not getting any more help than anyone else with a patent who didn't establish a monopoly.

Finally, the reason that examples of monopolies established without government intervention are few and far between is is both simple and obvious: governments break up abusive monopolies

You need to decide those things before we can come up with examples that meet your criteria. Without that I fear the goal posts will be shifting along far too quickly to come up with a decent response.

All that being said, here are some examples of things that could be considered monopolistic under the following reasonable constraints:

  1. > 70% market share
  2. Very specific delineations as to what constitutes a market
  3. Monopoly wasn't directly established by the government (ie: East India Trading Company-styled monopolies.) but could have benefitted from non targeted government programs.

AT&T was considered a monopoly by ~1910.

Luxottica is the world's largest eyewear manufacturer, with some estimates saying the control 80% of the global industry. YKK makes almost all the world's zippers. De Beers controlled almost all the world's diamonds before they got smacked for price-fixing violations. Intel makes almost all the processors. PayPal has 90% of US market share. Google controls about 80% of internet searches. 80% of the corn harvested each year in the United States is Monsanto engineered. I could go on.

Looking at the data, it seems that monopolies will tend to naturally go away, as long as the company doesn't abuse its monopolistic position to maintain its monopoly.

If a company does use its position to maintain its monopoly, well, true monopolies were outlawed in 1890 in the U.S. after Congress passed the Sherman Antitrust Act. Abusive monopolies tend to get broken up by the government. We don't have much data about what would happen over the long term to a company that was abusing its market position to maintain its monopoly.

We really only have one type of example where an entity has complete monopolistic control of the market it is in and isn't broken up by the government: the government itself. The government has complete control on things like land rights, they charge fees for using their land (ex property taxes), and they have a private army at their beck and call to back up their claim on the land. We've seen corporate towns set up in the past and they acted like the government, so the line of what is a company and what is a government isn't exactly cut and dry.

It isn't a perfect comparison, but it is instructive. It would seem to suggest that if a company becomes a monopoly and is willing to do whatever it takes to maintain their monopoly, they'll be able to achieve that goal.

Unless 'revolution and civil war' is a natural process, then I'd venture a guess and say that No, under purely capitalistic forces monopolies will not naturally go away.

Shane
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    Microsoft never broke up FYI https://www.computerworld.com/article/2497911/microsoft-windows/the-microsoft-breakup-that-never-happened.html

    I didn't downvote you in case you wondering.

    – Anaryl Nov 01 '17 at 22:43
  • @Anaryl Good point. Edited. – Shane Nov 02 '17 at 02:38
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    Intel only makes a small fraction of the processors, probably less than 20%. Most processors are in phones, and no phones use Intel processors. There are around three billion ARM processors manufactured every year, and maybe half a billion Intel processors. – Mike Scott Nov 02 '17 at 11:13
  • @MikeScott That depends on your definition of "processor". ARM makes SoCs which aren't strictly CPU's. You could expand the definition to include things like microcontrollers and GPUs but that would miss the point that Intel have had a monopoly on the desktop market for probably the last ten to fifteen years - which is an established fact. – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 12:18
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    "The Government" is by no means a monopoly. Government exists on Federal, State or Provincial, and Municipal levels, and these are often at odds with or in competition with each other. Particular governments may have a more or less monopolistic position in certain specific "markets". – MickeyfAgain_BeforeExitOfSO Nov 02 '17 at 13:56
  • @MikeScott See, you're arguing about what exactly constitutes a market. That's fair, and it's a good debate to have. But I included criteria #2 up there because I don't want to have it in the comments here. – Shane Nov 02 '17 at 14:24
  • @mickeyf Extending the analogy, State, Provincial, and Municipal governments are departments and sub-departments within the larger organization. But yeah, it isn't a one-to-one comparison. More like it is 'kind of suggestive, but in no way definitive, if you sort of squint and look at it from the right angle.' – Shane Nov 02 '17 at 14:30
  • @Shane I have to squint pretty hard. Many states and municipal governments in the U.S. are now suing the federal government - hardly sub-departments. A defining characteristic of Canada is the on-going argument "who is responsible - Federal, Provincial, or Municipal?". Given what "government" actually is, you could as well say that "Society as a whole" is a monopoly. The less clearly we acknowledge what government is, the easier it is to blame that vague entity that is "The Government". A definition of Monopoly has to include that its beneficiaries must be a small subset of effected parties. – MickeyfAgain_BeforeExitOfSO Nov 02 '17 at 14:51
  • @Anaryl But Intel’s monopoly on the desktop won’t last much longer, for the same reason as they were able to establish it in the first place. Whoever makes the most CPUs makes the best CPUs. Once Apple migrates its desktop architecture to ARM, pressure will grow for Microsoft to do the same, since the Apple hardware will be better than anything that uses Intel and so can run Windows natively. – Mike Scott Nov 02 '17 at 15:38
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    The > should be &gt;. (Insufficient rep to do sub-six-character edits here; sigh). – Charles Duffy Nov 02 '17 at 20:44
  • @Anaryl not really a monopoly. AMDs desktop processors have been quite successful since at least around 2000. Intel may have been bigger in many senses most of the time since, but by no means a monopoly since AMD processors have been available and quite popular all those 17 years since. – mathreadler Nov 03 '17 at 17:45
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All the examples of monopolies that I have found are created by the government, or at least aided by it in large ways. Are there any counterexamples? If not, why not?

Somalia.

Business is based on patronage networks, and tight monopolies dominate the market.

There are no legal or institutional frameworks regulating the market in Somalia, thus market competition is absent and the economy is controlled by patronage networks with close ties to the ruling elite (BTI 2016).

State-building is hampered by large scale corruption and misappropriation of public funds (BTI 2016). There is no developed revenue system in Somalia. International funding and payments made at sea and airports are the main source of revenue for the country, but there is no transparency in the collection or distribution of these funds (BTI 2016). The country’s institutions are dysfunctional, and there are no integrity mechanisms in place to curb corruption. S

http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/country-profiles/somalia

Three companies, Hormuud, Nationlink and Olympic Telecom, cover almost the entire telecommunications market in south-central Somalia, and Nationlink increasingly provides services abroad, notably in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda and the Central African Republic. Without a regulatory body, new entrants to the market cannot compete with established ones who keep a tight grip on their monopolies. The assigning of frequencies is undertaken under the auspices of the big three and the decision reflects their consensus. The regulating body in Somalia is, therefore, a market commodity, meaning that market share determines regulation, albeit on a consensual basis.

http://www.international-alert.org/sites/default/files/publications/26_section_2_Somalia.pdf

So to respond to the first part - I'd argue monopolies are pretty natural. Some previous examples could include entities such as the Catholic Church, the Knights Templar and the British East India Company that maintained substantial monopolies in their industries despite attempts at government intervention and regulation. One might argue that these monopolies did ultimately fail (except for perhaps the Catholic Church) - but they did so as a result of government intervention - not market correction. Likewise, these actors maintained their monopolies for decades if not over a century.

Hell, you could argue that the entire European Feudal period consisted of local agricultural monopolies, with landlords maintaining private armies and complete economic control of their fiefs.

You might argue that these actors consist of states in their own right but I think that would be a semantic argument. Monopolies are entirely natural and have occurred regularly throughout human history. Likewise, cartel behaviour occurs regularly even in Western markets and is punished by regulators (when they catch it). Hell, Microsoft got busted for anti-trust behaviour in the late 90s, Intel's anti-trust case in Europe is under review, and Qualcomm copped a fine in 2015 for violating China's anti-monopoly laws https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/10/business/international/qualcomm-fine-china-antitrust-investigation.html and is facing similar allegation in Europe https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/technology/qualcomm-is-accused-of-violating-antitrust-rules-in-europe.html?mcubz=1

I think on the minarchist end of the spectrum there exists a tendency to diagnose regulatory failure as a result of overregulation; or prescribe deregulation as the cure to bad regulation. Many libertarian thinkers take this to the extreme and argue "Hey if there was no regulation, things would be even better!". That pure Utopianism.

This isn't really accurate - weak legal and institutional frameworks just as often (if not more often) lead to bad outcomes. Otherwise failed states would be just as likely to descend into libertarian utopias as they would civil war. I can't think of an instance where this has ever happened.

Ultimately, monopolies are a feature, not a bug, of heteropolar world orders.

Anaryl
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  • How are you defining a monopoly? If you're lumping the Catholic Church as a monopoly, how would that be distinguished from, say, a government having a monopoly on force? Or rather, what differentiates the Catholic Church as being subject to your definition but not the contemporary idea of a nation state? – mkingsbu Nov 02 '17 at 13:23
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    I don't understand, what differentiates any monopoly from that of a state who does have a monopoly on the use of force apart from the market they have a monopoly on? It's unclear what you're asking. Although in this instance the Catholic Church I'm referring had a monopoly on religion in Europe and preceded the Treaty of Westphalia (and thus the contemporary nation state). I wouldn't say it does anymore - but it certainly did for well over a thousand years. But the Catholic Church was never a state in of itself. – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 14:45
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  Friedman was wrong because he assumed that competitors could offer same or better product without regard for infrastructure and technical debt. Typical example would be Microsoft de facto monopoly in the OS marker for personal computers (PCs) . Although we now have basically free OS like Linux (non-market forces !) , even they could not budge Windows from the top. Reason for that is of course existing software written exclusively for Microsoft OS. Any software company in PC market would first and foremost aim to develop product that could run on Microsoft Windows, with Linux being distant afterthought. Therefore, anyone who would want to develop competing OS would be in huge disadvantage because existing infrastructure is hard to replace and in reality although it doesn't legally belong to Microsoft, it is effectively under Microsoft control.

  Only way to break this pattern is to develop something entirely new that would eliminate need for monopolized product. In our case, in time, it is possible that let's say tablets would replace PC's , therefore making entire concept of PC OS obsolete. But, barring that, in technical fields (and most of the market today is technical), without government intervention monopolies would naturally form, quite opposite of Friedman's claims. Note that in case of mobile devices, Google would most likely form monopoly with their Android OS, despite efforts of companies like Apple.

rs.29
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    "possible"??? It already happened. More people are using Linux (under the guise of Android mostly, and ChromeOS) or Unix (under the guise of MacOS) than Windows. Somehow, this all happened without government breaking up MS "monopoly", or doing anything at all for that matter. So... Friedman was right in the end. – user4012 Nov 02 '17 at 22:54
  • @user4012 Nope, you are wrong. If you buy PC (especially for professional purposes) you would most likely have Windows on it. Some people install Linux, but they are in minority. Android for PCs is just a toy. I did say that some time in the future PCs that we know today (desktops and laptops) may become obsolete and completely replaced by mobile devices. But until that happens, Microsoft effectively holds PC market because of large libraries of software that run only on their OS. – rs.29 Nov 03 '17 at 06:10
  • @user4012 Also note that producers pay license for Android to Google, i.e. Android is NOT Linux. So even if mobile devices replace PCs, you would just replace one monopoly with another. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/23/how-google-controls-androids-open-source – rs.29 Nov 03 '17 at 06:15
  • @rs.29 : Quite rare that people as in private users install linux on their home PC maybe. But companies run linux on their servers *a lot*, and it is by no means "non-market forces" as the main issue is rarely licence costs but rather support, compatibility, reliability. Even if individual FOSS packages are free as in free beer the work to put everything together and do support on it is often not. – mathreadler Nov 03 '17 at 17:52
  • @mathreadler You are not paying attention. Server market is something entirely different than PC market. Even sysadmins that administrate lots of Linux servers usually have Windows workstation. Creators of free software like Linus Torvalds and others are essentially non-market force in classic sense, because they give they work for free. Support is something different. – rs.29 Nov 03 '17 at 18:38
  • @rs.29 Do you have any source for that claim "working for free"? There is a value in first of all being first with developing something and a huge value in having an information advantage of what happens in data handling machines which other people don't have much information. Especially in our modern world... As an example someone has spent 2 years developing an awesome software. You get impressed and would want to do something new or similar to that software. Who would you ask to help you? A random dude who is new on it or the person who created the original. – mathreadler Nov 03 '17 at 22:08
  • Also it is a bit weird to claim that something driven by market forces even could be driven away by something not driven by market forces. Everything is driven by market forces. Sometimes it is the low cost for one party that is attractive, sometimes maybe it is something else, like information advantage for the other. – mathreadler Nov 03 '17 at 22:11
  • @mathreadler I didn't say they work for free, I said they are giving their work for free. Which is essentially true, you could get Linux for free, install it on how many servers you want, and never pay a dime for support if you have people who know how to administrate it. Charity, volunteering, giving something for free, risking your life for cause etc ...these are non-market forces that cannot be explained by economics. Yet, even these non-market forces could not move Windows from top in PC market. – rs.29 Nov 04 '17 at 05:38
  • @rs.29 No, they are definitely market forces. Anything there is a supply and demand of are susceptible to market forces. But, they may not be as conveniently quantifiable in how much of a currency gets displaced. – mathreadler Nov 04 '17 at 09:42
  • @mathreadler If you create something and give it for free, there is no supply and demand. 0$ price means you basically don´t care would somebody want to "buy" your product or would he go for cheaper/better alternative. Giving something for free means that you don't care would 1000 or 1000000 people use your product, you don't adjust your price if you have competition. Therefore, there is no supply and demand, and economics could not explain this. – rs.29 Nov 05 '17 at 06:56
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    @rs.29 Your argument is wrong. The fact that open source products are available for free does NOT mean that the developers don't care whether or not anyone uses it. In fact, the exact opposite is true. The more people use it, the more feedback, code contributions, reputation they gain. Motivations other than money DO exist, whether you like it or not. – barbecue Nov 05 '17 at 08:22
  • @barbecue For economic standpoint they do not care, nor they bother to have few more "customers". Of course, morally they would like their product to be appreciated. But laws of supply demand do not apply - product will not cheaper if it is not in demand and there is lot of supply , nor it would become more expensive if there is a lot of demand. – rs.29 Nov 05 '17 at 11:48
  • @rs.29 Basically everything there is wrong. Even if it was true, there is a market for getting work done - and on that market the demand for the skills of the developer having created a great software could well increase a lot. There are plenty of such examples, maybe the most obvious example would probably be Linus T. – mathreadler Nov 05 '17 at 12:27
  • @mathreadler Linus now works as employee of Linux Foundation. While he certainly earns pretty penny, he is not a billionaire like owners of Microsoft and Google. He could have been, but is not. That certainly makes his behavior irrational from economics point of view. – rs.29 Nov 05 '17 at 12:39
  • @rs.29 No it doesn't. Believing that demand for money would/should be the only driving force of peoples behaviours is incredibly naiive and not even close to reality. Reality is a market where money is *one* of the goods there could be demand for. Other things which usually have a rather high demand amongst employees include being able to do what one wants, being able to spend time with family or friends and having more spare time to pursue other endeavours : for example learning new skills or trying new things. – mathreadler Nov 05 '17 at 12:56
  • @mathreadler What you say goes out of the scope of classical economy (Friedman) and even that does not explain working for free. – rs.29 Nov 05 '17 at 17:57
  • @rs.29 I have not studied very much economics, but is the market of workers and how supply and demand for different positions are affected given working conditions not even considered in economics? – mathreadler Nov 05 '17 at 18:24
  • Economics as a field of study is predicated principles which are absolutely KNOWN to be unrealistic and not applicable. Economists will tell you this themselves. The models are arbitrary and absolutely do NOT reflect reality. You can't point to even one example of a model that attempts to represent human behavior realistically. No such model has ever existed. – barbecue Nov 06 '17 at 17:39
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I'm amazed that Facebook, possibly the world's largest monopoly, was not mentioned in this discussion. It plays on a global playing field, in what was (and to a large degree still is) completely unregulated territory and the results are obvious: it is becoming impossible to communicate with people without consenting to Facebook owning the information exchanged. While there are other social networks out there, the service that people are looking for is not "a social network", but a channel to communicate with their family and friends, which are more often than not already present on Facebook, and only on Facebook. In all salient aspects, Facebook looks to me like undeniable evidence that in a nearly completely unregulated environment (regulations now lag decades behind technology), a monopoly only grows stronger. To the detriment of service users, of course, as the monopolist has very little incentive to look after their interests.

While changes in regulation or significant technology advancements (e.g. blockchain-powered social networks) may change the game sufficiently to rock its position, without significant changes in environment, the monopoly is likely to thrive.

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    There is a good answer in here. At the moment it is phrased more as a contribution to a debate. You could edit it to make the "I think" aspects less and perhaps add some citations, to increase the answer's authority. – James K Nov 02 '17 at 12:22
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    I don't think Facebook holds a monopolistic position in either of the markets it does business in. It's important to remember that the service Facebook is offering is not social networking - but analytics of user behaviour. That's what its selling. It competes with a number of other firms in this area - but I'd say Google is certainly the most noteworthy.

    Likewise, whilst Facebook certainly is pretty damn large when it comes to social networking, users can and use more than one - and the users are in essence the product, not the consumers of Facebook.

    – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 13:19
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    That's to say, Facebook doesn't hold a monopolistic position in the markets in which they operate. It's not to say that they wouldn't like to - just that they clearly have aggressive competitors with similar or greater resources. – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 13:20
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    @Anaryl While I fully agree that FB doesn't have a monopolistic position in the business of providing information to advertisers (I don't think this is at all controversial), it works with another set of clients in a different type of trade: it provides a communication service and charges users loss of privacy and control over their communication. There is a clear need for this type of communication and thus a market. The fact that FB doesn't make money directly from users is secondary, in my view: value is still being exchanged and for most practical purposes, FB is a clear monopolist there. – Tomislav Nakic-Alfirevic Nov 02 '17 at 15:18
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    If it is not a monopoly and you need an example, take a look at Facebook and G+. Same market, same goals. Big companies, lots of money. Where is G+ today? Mixing the concepts between consumer and product is irritating. The users ARE the target/consumers of Facebook, not the product. The data extracted from them is the product which is sold as information finetuning that via marketing tools (developed by facebook to manage, categorize and standardize the data), so the companies can better focuse their efforts at selling, turning the facebook users in captive consumers for said companies. – Billeeb Nov 02 '17 at 15:18
  • @JamesK Thank you. To be sure, my answer came from the top of my head, so "I think"-language is fair as I have no readily available sources to back up this claim or that other than my own judgments. That said, I'd like to know which parts you see as the weakest links: I may look into them further and provide additional feedback, as this is a subject few can afford not to hold close to heart. – Tomislav Nakic-Alfirevic Nov 02 '17 at 15:26
  • Yes, there are some other networks that also sell the "socialization", and yes they also try to tap the "monetization" of the bag of consumers that they have, however, they can't dream with becoming something like Facebook, for the same reasosns already stated before: entry barriers, running costs, data retrieving skills and technology, logaritmics developments related to the unique position they have been exploiting for many years (unique knowledge), – Billeeb Nov 02 '17 at 15:27
  • the fact that the service is free to the users, but the their data is sold without constrains means that if you are going to compete you have to amass a critical amount of users to start to get some useful market insights. So, yes, it is a monopoly. A monopoly of personal information of people. Governments with not happy purposes have already tried to tap into the info to bypass the people, luckily Facebook is not very fond of "gobernamental intromission". – Billeeb Nov 02 '17 at 15:31
  • @Billeeb Except that that it's clearly not a monopoly. Facebook users are no more consumers of it's product anymore than cows are consumers for the dairy industry. The users are the resource from which a product is extracted - user data, which is then sold to companies looking to advertise or to engage with users on than platform. If you look at their business model - saying they have a monopoly would imply that they're the only serious game in town - but they're not. Google is the most obvious example. – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 17:03
  • Not only that, but even with it's large user base, Facebook can't embargo off that resource. The market structurally doesn't support it. A user can "sell" their data to more than one provider - and indeed does in the course of an online session. A user might open up facebook, browse, then click on to a youtube link, then google something, then visit a website running google's analytics engine, passing that data around to multiple market actors. A monopoly would imply complete or near complete control of the resource (user data), or complete control of the product (targeted advertising) - – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 17:05
  • this is demonstrably untrue.
  • Likewise arguing that Facebook has a monopolistic social media network conveniently ignores the fact that there are a number of other large social media networks out there, e.g Twitter, LinkedIn, Tumblr G+, that people use in conjunction with Facebook. This again defies the description of a monopoly. Facebook's large user base does not necessarily preclude that user base from using other products in the same market. Ergo not a monopoly.

    – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 17:08
  • While true that the user (why you call it user if is as you said not an user?) goes around exposing data, the fact that you think that the info facebook tracks from us is just that is clearly why you think is not a monopoly. I already explained why the user data (being a resource) does not create a monopoly, but the means to extract that and turn it into something sellable, yes. You think targeted advertising from them is not a monopoly? Same as google but with its own network of data retrievers. – Billeeb Nov 02 '17 at 17:14
  • @Anaryl I don't think Facebook holds a monopolistic position in either of the markets it does business in. It's important to remember that the service Facebook is offering is not social networking - but analytics of user behaviour. They offer both. The fact that they make much more money from selling analytics of user behaviour than they do from direct use of their social network does not mean that they aren't operating a social network. Nothing conceptually stops Facebook from having an absolute monopoly on social networks without having a monopoly on global internet user analytics. – Shane Nov 02 '17 at 19:35
  • Whilst it's theoretically possible for Facebook to have a monopoly on social networking, I'd argue it's very unlikely due to the way the web is structured (people can and do use multiple networks and it would be incredibly expensive to buy up any serious competitor in order to maintain that monopoly. Also look at what happened with mySpace - despite holding a dominant position in the market place, it fell apart pretty quickly. Also it's pretty unlikely Facebook will ever penetrate the Chinese market like Weibo or WeChat have. – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 19:55
  • @Billeeb How is it a monopoly if it has competitors in the same market doing the same thing? I'm not sure how you think targeted advertisers = "monopoly".

    I think you're trying to argue that Facebook only being able to mine its users and deliver them targeted ads within facebook makes it a monopoly.Those same users are being targeted by multiple actors within and without Facebook.

    – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 20:30
  • There are plenty of CDNs doing this. Facebook faces a lot of healthy competition in both aspects of its markets. Arguing that it controls advertisements in space it owns is a monopoly is like arguing a department store is a monopoly because it controls the advertisements it sells in stores, or that a newspaper is a monopoly because it alone determines which advertisements it choose to print. – Anaryl Nov 02 '17 at 20:30
  • Twitter, LinkedIn or G+ have little to do with each other. Our friends will not discuss and schedule e.g. social events via LinkedIn (a service for professionals), G+ (basically dead, insignificant user activity and thus value proposition) etc. Also, if you can't look beyond the fact that FB has relationships with companies buying user information AND users themselves, than we're not going to agree. However, there is an exchange in value between users and FB and I think that due to the staggering network effect, no other company can offer the service of connecting you to your social circle. – Tomislav Nakic-Alfirevic Nov 03 '17 at 09:55
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    @anaryl your view of what's a market, what's that facebook sells and what are the users, clearly opaques the possibility to catch the possible monopoly there. I agree that is not something obvious in USA, but in the rest of the world there's no other network that handle so many potential cautive clients. I work in marketing and in the web advertisement there's no other network playing. Google is related to the searches and they other products, but if you want to go social, facebook is the defacto. – Billeeb Nov 03 '17 at 16:13