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Is the system of propositional logic itself induced, beyond its manipulated assumptions? It seems to be the case that we use propositional logic on the basis of two facts - firstly that it seems to work when applied correctly and with sufficient knowledge, which is an a postiori justification seemingly from induction, and secondly that the specific rules of inference can be induced easily. Conditionals are induced from the fact that certain events seem to connect to one other predictably, the "and" function is induced from the observation that certain events seem to connect to one another necessarily to create a valid conditional, the "or" function is induced from the observation that certain conditionals can be valid in multiple distinct or combined cases, and so on. It seems then that our use of propositional logic is itself validated only by induction. Another way to phrase this question is through a thought experiment. If a human lived in a world in which events connected randomly, where the connection of events did not seem to follow deductive rules, would they be able to imagine up deductive reasoning at all? If so, how would they arrive at this thought? If not, doesn't this demonstrate that propositional logic is justified only by induction? Keep in mind that claiming that "our world does not function this way" does not answer why a human in such a world would not be able to arrive at the idea of deduction, if deduction is not based on induction. Likewise, claiming that "deduction is useful" seems to be an argument from induction of the results of using deduction.

CodeReaper
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  • NO................................. – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 01 '21 at 14:07
  • @MauroALLEGRANZA What do you mean by "no"? And if you're refuting my argument, please explain why. – CodeReaper Jan 01 '21 at 14:22
  • The term INDUCTION expresses that the famous 5 senses are the foundation of knowledge: sight, taste, touch, smell, & hearing. This is also known a SENSE VERIFICATION. All SCIENCES are grounded by INDUCTION processes. Many human experiences in our lives involves at least one of the senses. This may be why you think the way you do here. Deductive reasoning expresses I DO NOT NEED my senses to derive new information: I use only my THOUGHTS in a particular way. I may write out a proof for other to see the thinking but this is FOR OTHERS to see the thinking. I don't NEED to use any of my senses. – Logikal Jan 01 '21 at 15:06
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    @Logikal you're misunderstanding my argument. How do you know what the functions of propositional logic mean without witnessing with the senses the connections between events? That is, if you were, as my example said, born into a chaotic world without rules, how would you derive the idea of a conditional? No events would seem to be connected to one another, so how, specifically, would you go about coming up with conditionals? The point isn't whether it's thought or felt, the point is that you can't think about conditionals without experiencing sensed connections between events. – CodeReaper Jan 01 '21 at 15:18
  • Your argument is faulty. That is there are counter examples which means at best your reasoning here is 50- 50. Notice I said AT BEST you would be correct. This obviously means you will be wrong much of the time. So far no experience needed to derive the conclusion. I get what you mean: yes cave men relied heavily on induction. People without strong academic skills also STILL rely heavily on induction. The point is DEDUCTIVE REASONING is not based on our SENSES & not based on EXPERIENCE. You can make deductions on things you have NO EXPERIENCE in. Your theory immediately has a counter example. – Logikal Jan 01 '21 at 17:00
  • "Conditionals are induced from the fact that certain events seem to connect to one other predictably... " NO; conditional of classical logic does not expresses a "causal link". – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 01 '21 at 17:14
  • "The "and" function is induced from the observation that certain events..." NO; we learn language and the rule to use it: syntax. These rules include rules for "and" and "or". – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 01 '21 at 17:15
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    "a world where the connection of events did not seem to follow deductive rules" NO; the events in the world follow (maybe) laws: physical, biological, social, psychological. There is no "deduction" in events: deductions occur in human argumentations. – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 01 '21 at 17:16
  • Why can't I think about CONDITIONSALS with no prior experience? Have you never heard of IMAGINATION? I suppose SUPERMAN has to have been experienced? The all time favorite of Mathematical logic people is the famous proposition about Unicorns. Surely you don't mean human beings experience those concepts as we know them. What you are repeating has been addressed in a book called FLATLAND. You are not the first to have the thoughts you have. The argument goes basic concepts can be combined to make the imaginary ones: we know what a horse & what a horn is by experience so just combine them right? – Logikal Jan 01 '21 at 17:21
  • @Logikal if you aren't right every time when 1) the logic is formed correctly and 2) the premises are true, then logic loses meaning, because logic itself would be unsound. – CodeReaper Jan 02 '21 at 00:06
  • @Logikal Conditionals are indeed not meant to convey causality, which is why I said, "connect to one another," and not "cause one another," the connections are not necessarily causal. – CodeReaper Jan 02 '21 at 00:06
  • @Logikal Language comes after general thought, not before, otherwise you have to explain how the hell someone can learn to use it. I'm not saying babies use deduction or think about using induction, but they use induction intuitively, as evidenced by the fact that they learn at all. The "and" and "or" functions spoken of here are their primitive forms, not the manner in which they are used in systemized logic. Language isn't magic, it doesn't come from nothing. They can't come solely from language, they must be rooted in something else mentally or experientially. – CodeReaper Jan 02 '21 at 00:13
  • @Logikal Deductive rules are very much applied to the world. If logic bears no relationship to the real world, it's useless. We use logic to manipulation information we do have into information we don't necessarily see on the surface level of consideration. We don't study logic to know how to manipulate variables, we do it to make conclusions. These conclusions, if they, for some reason, did not ever fit the world, would render logic nonsensical and useless. – CodeReaper Jan 02 '21 at 00:16
  • @Logikal Imagination cannot create ideas from nothing. Superman is a combination of several real-world ideas: strength, lasers, speed, flying, and a man, to name a few - the concept of super man is rooted in reality, even though he does not exist. You cannot imagine a new color in a way that you can visualize it, because you cannot create information from nothing. If there is no connection between any event in another in a chaotic world, you cannot magic up the idea of conditionals, since the idea of conditionals is not formed from combinations of other ideas. – CodeReaper Jan 02 '21 at 00:19
  • @Logikal further, if you did come up with the idea of conditionals from a combination of other ideas, the more basic ideas you used to arrive at it would need to come from the world. Imagination is not unlimited in its productive abilities, it must work from known ideas, which are ultimately taken from the world. – CodeReaper Jan 02 '21 at 00:23

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Potentially, you could be asking one of two different questions. One is how did our ability to do logic get started? i.e. a question about origins. The other is how do we consider logic to be grounded or justified? i.e. a question about the epistemology of logic.

In the case of the former question, we really just don't know. We know from studies of animals that some species have a basic ability to reason, and some are able to count. Mothers with a litter of six young usually know when one is missing. But how this developed in humans we don't have much idea: it happened in prehistoric times and we don't have records, so we can only guess. I think we can safely say though, that by the time the stoic philosophers in the third century BCE were devising the logic of propositions (i.e. 'and', 'or', 'if') we were a long way past the simple idea that we are just generalising from experience.

A comparison with counting is perhaps appropriate: parents teach their children to count by showing them real things such as stones or trees or ducks and getting them to count them. But once we progress beyond the nursery stage, we don't need to count ducks to know how arithmetic works, nor do we believe that arithmetic is correct just because it works on ducks, no matter how many times we practice counting them. Similarly, the words 'and', 'or' and 'if' are part of the English language, and we learn how to use them when we learn our first language. The examples that we were presented with when we learned how to use them are no longer relevant to our understanding.

In the case of the second question, there is much disagreement about the epistemology of logic. Some positions are that it is an innate and privileged form of a priori knowledge, that it is grounded in the grammar of the language we use, that it is derived from the inferential relationships that we consider semantically compelling, that it is grounded in a theory of meaning, that it is justified by its close relationship with the concept of computation, that it is justified by virtue of being the product of natural selection, that it is justified in an indirect way by the contibution it makes to our scientific knowledge.

However, the idea that we simply proceed by induction from observations is implausible. For one thing, propositional logic is concerned with the connection between the truths of propositions, not between events. There is nothing intrinsically causal about the connections. For another, once a logical connection is correctly grasped, further examples become irrelevant, except for illustrative purposes. By contrast, with inductive support, the more data you have the better, because the data is needed to support the proposed connection.

As to your thought experiment, I would be inclined to say that a world that is so chaotic that no connections of any kind are observable would be a world in which I, or any living thing, could not exist, so the question is moot. The most that you might say is that since we use logic to organise information, if we have no information there is nothing to organise, so logic would be a pointless exercise.

Bumble
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  • Very detailed answer, thank you. I take two primary issues with it, however. Firstly, I said "connections," not "causations" purposefully, I didn't mean that the connections were causal. Deduction is also certainly concerned with the relationships between truth values generally, and the fact that you admitted simple examples are used to illustrate the basic concept before the general one points toward a form of induction. If logic doesn't work, it serves no purpose, because it isn't sound in its construction, meaning the chaotic world is still relevant. – CodeReaper Jan 03 '21 at 04:08
  • Secondly, math is not exempt from this seeming issue. Using examples is originally useful, even if it is later unnecessary - because you understand the mental motion from repeated example to generalization. With a sufficient number of axioms, math works logically far beyond possible examples, but this does not prove that the examples were not necessary to start. Further, geometry is idealized, and useful, but appears to come from the fact that we live in a world where space exists. The extrapolation of this gives the idea of higher spatial dimensions, so this isn't an issue for my argument. – CodeReaper Jan 03 '21 at 04:13
  • Essentially, I'm trying to dig away at what you said about the uncertainty of origins. I'm arguing that a blank-slate theory of mind can still entirely account for the deductive concepts that we have. We obviously learn from the structure of our language and through the knowledge passed down to us from our various teachers, but being given knowledge that makes no sense to us from experience is jarring, and would change how we look at logic. So, the person in the chaotic world would not discover the concept of logic, since if the idea occurred it would be discarded as silly. – CodeReaper Jan 03 '21 at 04:16
  • Given the uncertainty of origin, and because the blank-slate theory of mind is a separate topic, I will accept this answer. Thanks for your help. – CodeReaper Jan 03 '21 at 04:17