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From The Unabomber Manifesto by Ted Kaczynski:

  1. The breakdown of traditional values to some extent implies the breakdown of the bonds that hold together traditional small-scale social groups. The disintegration of small-scale social groups is also promoted by the fact that modern conditions often require or tempt individuals to move to new locations, separating themselves from their communities. Beyond that, a technological society has to weaken family ties and local communities if it is to function efficiently. In modern society an individual's loyalty must be first to the system and only secondarily to a small-scale community, because if the internal loyalties of small-scale communities were stronger than loyalty to the system, such communities would pursue their own advantage at the expense of the system.
JRE
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Nitin Sheokand
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    What is a technological society? Definition? – Jo Wehler Feb 05 '24 at 07:58
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    What output and input are we tracking to decide efficiency? – g s Feb 05 '24 at 08:11
  • A technological society is one where technology plays a significant role in shaping its culture, social life, and economic development. There is widespread use of technology and dependence on it. It is marked by rapid innovation, globalization and automation. – Nitin Sheokand Feb 05 '24 at 08:12
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    This seems to be a sociological or anthropological question rather than a philosophical one. – Jack Aidley Feb 05 '24 at 17:11
  • I don't know if it's true but whenever you remove restrictions in one area it tends to give more freedom to optimize another. This goes for everything. – DKNguyen Feb 05 '24 at 19:37
  • @NitinSheokand By that definition, essentially all human societies have been "technological societies". So, weakening relative to what? – Sneftel Feb 06 '24 at 12:44
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    Kaczynski is just making the argument that in the "fast moving, modern world" of today people tend to move around a lot rather than stay small and tightly nit. He's not presenting sociological evidence or studies but rather trying to make aesthetic, subjective, intuitive arguments about human social structures he observes. Most people can empathize with these perceived problems in society and so it is important to identify that these problems might exist, but to objectively determine they really exist is kind of outside of the extent of the manifesto. – Kevin Brant Feb 06 '24 at 22:30
  • Is Kaczynski conflating technological societies with capitalist societies? It is not hard to imagine a technological society in which family and community is valued. But a capitalist system will always press those without capital to sacrifice family and community for wages. – mikeagg Feb 07 '24 at 08:50
  • Does the passage have any useful meaning? Isn't it summed up by the first sentence 'The breakdown of traditional values to some extent implies the breakdown of the bonds that hold together traditional small-scale social groups'? Almost inarguable, largely because almost all art with no real matter.

    The claim in Question could be true but not if it relied on that passage for justification; less so if it 'technological society…' depended on that for its definition.

    – Robbie Goodwin Feb 09 '24 at 17:44
  • Even a stopped crock is right twice a page. My family of origin did disperse across the country in search of good jobs, I was the one who stayed in my home state the longest. Maybe we should have good jobs everywhere that people might like to live? Often it is the non-work aspects of jobs that make them good: good pay, 'benefits', reasonable hours, not dangerous or abusive, not too far from good housing... All of these could be improved. – Scott Rowe Feb 18 '24 at 23:35
  • Since this popped up again and we still don't know the input and output, I have tendered an irrelevant vote-to-close: needs detail, since by arbitrarily selecting inputs and outputs we can make any action necessary for efficient function. Nuking yourself out of existence is "efficient" if your desired output is irradiated craters where your cities once stood. – g s Feb 19 '24 at 16:36

8 Answers8

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Kaczynski himself may or may not be a conservative, but "the breakdown of traditional values" is something conservatives keep fear-mongering about, and they keep asserting that this is somehow the same as the breakdown of society at large, even though it's rarely more than an assertion, and modern society is better than any point in the past by practically every conceivable metric (especially if you look towards more progressive societies).

Modern society of course has problems, and some of those problems may be a result of advancement. It's rare to make a change without also introducing some new problems, but that doesn't automatically mean that the change was bad. The way to fix a problem with motorised vehicles is not to abandon them altogether and go back to riding horses, the way to solve climate change is not by going back to living primitively in the woods, and the way to fix the problems with some medication is not to discontinue it (unless problems outweigh the benefits, which has led to discontinuing plenty of medication, but essentially all medication has some risks or downsides, yet we keep using those because the benefits are greater).


Kaczynski seems to focus on social groups.

He presents "the system" as antagonistic to small-scale communities, but I don't see much support for that, and there are significant issues with his argument:

  • He seems to suggest that "small-scale social groups", "family ties" and "local communities" are both important and non-substitutable.

    But I know of way too many people who were physically and mentally abused by their family for years, kicked out on the street, or ostracised by their local community, often just for being who they are, if for any reason at all. Many end up committing suicide due to feeling hopeless being stuck in such situations. This is not because of technology (the opposite, usually), and in many cases technology provides a vital lifeline for such people to find community online, to form bonds with people in other places, and to find a new local community that accepts them, and they go on to live happy and fulfilling lives.

    Even within an accepting family, there could still be various mental conditions, personality conflicts or tendencies that could make it difficult for someone to connect with their family, that could make one feel entirely alone even among people who are trying their best to connect with you. Technology could similarly help here with getting people to connect with others (especially others who are more like them), or it could provide resources for families to understand one another better and connect through those barriers.

    None of this necessarily takes anything away from people with strong family ties and who value their local community, but it does give another option for those who don't, or those who want or need to supplement that with things they can't find in their local community.

  • Technology can and do help some families and local communities be more connected.

    It's easier than ever to instantly share information with dozens, hundreds, thousands or millions of people. Many people do use technology to keep up to date on local happenings, to organise local events and to form local groups based on similar interests.

    It's also easier than ever to keep in touch with other individuals. Plenty of people communicate with their partner constantly throughout the day, practically every day, for example (plenty of other people don't, and that's fine too).

  • He might in part just be objecting to capitalism (but who knows whether he sees it that way).

    People need to move to new places to financially survive in modern society, or they want to move there because they want financial security or because of the culture which deems how much money you have to be one of the primary ways to measure one's success in life. Or, on a more positive note, they move because that allows them to pursue their passion - if someone stays in their local community, that could severely limit the range of career paths available to them.

    It's more that this is enabled by technology rather than this being necessitated by technology. The driving force there is not technology, but rather financial needs or desires (or natural human variation in terms of interests). Technology was built within a capitalistic society, so it supports capitalism. If you dislike capitalism, you should push back against capitalism, not technology.

    (For what it's worth, I don't think capitalism is bad in principle, but I do think capitalism in its purest form leads to literal slavery... which is bad. And even if you aren't quite there, that doesn't mean it's good. Capitalism seems to be least harmful if supported by regulation and welfare, and there's an argument to be made that this combination also provides the greatest benefit to innovation and improvements to society.)


None of this is to say that technology is all good all the time (which I hope is already clear from my last point), and we definitely should be responsible and thoughtful in how we develop and use technology. But it certainly doesn't seem justified to say it's as bad as Kaczynski suggests, nor that it's more bad than good.

NotThatGuy
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  • "Capitalism seems to be least harmful if supported by regulation and welfare," - this is no longer (pure) capitalism. But that's a completely different story... – Trang Oul Feb 06 '24 at 09:13
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    This answer is very much from the perspective of what I presume Ted would call a technologist. Your 1st and 2nd "issue" with Ted's points actually support his position. Your 1st point, kids getting kicked out, would need to compare today's society in child rejection and dis-ownership to a time before you were born. Current anecdotal stories exist in the technological society already, where the influences Ted talks about have already taken place. Your 2nd point illustrates technology making up for local communities being broken apart, not bringing them closer than they were, say, 200 years ago. – David S Feb 06 '24 at 15:27
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    @DavidS The main pre/no-technology alternatives to kids getting kicked out and them finding other communities through technology is (a) them living on the street, (b) them trying to keep their head down while suffering through years of physical and mental abuse, and (c) them committing suicide. We see all of those happen in the modern day, and I can only hope that you wouldn't advocate for any of those alternatives above a child using technology to find happiness in another community. Just because kids were more likely to keep their head down in the past doesn't mean that was better for them. – NotThatGuy Feb 06 '24 at 17:49
  • @DavidS My second point is that technology can also bring people together, which most certainly does not support the point that technology pulls people apart. My point is that technology does what people want technology to do. You could maybe make the case that people have been using technology in ways that harm local community, but this doesn't mean technology inherently does this, as is demonstrated by my examples of people using it to strengthen local community. It also doesn't mean that any harm to local community is necessarily bad, as my first point demonstrates. – NotThatGuy Feb 06 '24 at 17:49
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    There are many metrics which are actually worse off today, specially in more "progressive" societies, and which often are caused by (or at least correlated with) the breakdown of the traditional family (others, more directly by technology). They are just underplayed and swept under the rug like OP does. – Mutoh Feb 06 '24 at 19:18
  • @Mutoh Compared to 50-200 years ago, we have less extreme poverty, higher GDP per capita (both adjusted for inflation and cost of living), much lower child mortality, higher life expectancy, lower rates of undernourishment (only recent data available), improved literacy rate, improved access to water and sanitation (only recent data available). Happiness is harder to measure, but here's some data that generally supports my case. Where's your data and what am I "sweeping under the rug"? – NotThatGuy Feb 06 '24 at 20:00
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    @NotThatGuy: 9 examples, among many others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries – Eric Duminil Feb 07 '24 at 08:32
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    @NotThatGuy also higher rates of loneliness, of mental illness, of suicide, of divorce, of children born out of wedlock or in divorced households or being raised by single parents (all of which are correlated with negative effects), fertility below replacement levels, people have less friends (including more reporting no friends at all). Notwithstanding facts less related to OP's question, such as increased pollution and deforestation. With enough cherry picking anyone can paint a rosy picture of the world, and it won't do to downplay these issues, they prove Ted's point. – Mutoh Feb 07 '24 at 10:34
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    @Mutoh: Your "points" seem haphazard. Born out of wedlock is not an issue in itself -- my very godfather lived in a stable relationship for 30+ years before finally marrying his partner (worrying about inheritance). Similarly with regard to divorce, I seem to remember a study showing that the availability of divorce seemed to correlate with higher life expectancy, especially for males. Finally, it's not clear whether being raised by single parents is problematic due to the "single" part, or the largely correlated budget issues part. – Matthieu M. Feb 07 '24 at 14:00
  • @EricDuminil Yes, I briefly mentioned climate change in my answer (although calling 9 thresholds of climate change "9 examples" is questionable). Technological advancement made climate change worse, but also greatly improved quality of life and saved many lives. I don't think the downsides of the industrial revolution outweighed the upsides, but even if it did, we don't have a time machine, and we have the technology to maintain quality of life without causing more climate change. Also, crucially, things wouldn't have gotten this critical had politicians not been ignoring science for decades. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 16:56
  • @NotThatGuy I don't subscribe to Ted's belief in technology being the cause of social issues. Humanity has had technology since before recorded history, it has nothing to do with systems of governance or economy. Some advancements can certainly catalyze events or changes. I believe that it was recently that technology's advancement began to outpace societies ability to evolve with it. Our cultures cannot adapt fast enough. I think he misinterpreted that strain. Another thing, part of Ted's arguments include geographic aspects. Ted implies that technology cannot substitute physical proximity. – David S Feb 07 '24 at 17:17
  • @Mutoh Where's your reference comparing any of those things to the past (especially the more distance past)? But anyway. Whether worse than the past or not, I agree that loneliness, mental illness and suicide are all problems (and the first 2 points in my answer are ways technology can improve all of that). But blaming technology for all of that, and abandoning technology to try to fix it doesn't really make sense. The world isn't that simple. Those are complex issues with many contributing factors, and technology can help improve it, like it's helped to improve many other things. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 17:26
  • @Mutoh "of divorce, of children born out of wedlock or in divorced households or being raised by single parents" - what does any of that have to do with technology? But anyway. People get divorced if they're in an unhappy or abusive relationship (and I don't think I've met anyone who took the decision to get divorced lightly, without trying to fix their relationship first). So divorce rate doesn't say much about happiness or quality of life. Also you complain about a low fertility rate (not necessarily a problem), but if children are only born in marriages, that means... fewer children. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 17:26
  • @DavidS We have done a bad job of adapting to technological changes, but I don't see much reason to think that's because we cannot adapt fast enough, especially given that, for many things, there have been clear signs of the problem, and clear ways to deal with the problem, but people have consistently chosen short-term financial benefits (often just for themselves) above dealing with those problems. There are very few present-day problems that haven't been around for at least a few decades. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 17:37
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    @NotThatGuy downplaying and sweeping under the rug. Try telling E. Asia that subrepl. fertility rates aren't really a problem, and one or another anecdote about people who turned out okay from broken marriages doesn't refute the trends (even if you think more broken marriages is worth it). I suggest editing the answer as "it's better by practically every conceivable metric" is patently false as you yourself admit that loneliness, mental illness and suicide are problems. Problems which technology is currently exacerbating - your idealized solutions aren't what scientists are reporting. – Mutoh Feb 07 '24 at 18:32
  • @Mutoh 1) I'm not really inclined to get into a discussion about the varying and wide-ranging implications of fertility rate. 2) It's very disingenuous to frame my position as merely "more broken marriages is worth it", when I specifically mentioned unhappy or abusive relationships. Should someone who's being abused by their partner stay married to them? If not, then you seem to be disagreeing with something I didn't say. 3) It's also very disingenuous to conflate "X is a problem" with "X has gotten worse", and to act like I said "every metric" instead of "practically every metric". – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 19:09
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    @NotThatGuy the vast majority of causes for divorce aren't abuse (>75%), but even if they were it'd be further evidence that modern (post-)industrial society is utterly incompetent at forming stable, fulfilling marriages or preventing/fixing bad ones, thus giving more credence to Ted. Indeed, the modern trend is to treat everything as disposable, which even leftist authors such as Bauman will recognize and correlate to technology (Liquid Modernity). Now, notice that the metrics you sweep under the rug or rationalize are precisely the ones relevant to Ted's point. Now that's disingenuous. – Mutoh Feb 07 '24 at 19:27
  • @Mutoh It sounds like you'd just say that literally everything must be evidence for your position, and nothing can be evidence against it, and you'll also hop to another point as soon as you're pressured to defend any of your claims. More divorce? That means technology is bad! But people are divorcing for good reason? That also means technology is bad! You implied that higher rates of divorce is bad. I argued that divorce isn't always bad. Rather than trying to refute my claim or admitting that you're wrong, you just threw out a meaningless statistic and started arguing something different. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 19:54
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    @NotThatGuy higher rates of divorce, whether one likes it (such as in your case) or not, will be evidence for the weakening of family ties either way. In this case it is indeed a heads I win, tails you lose. – Mutoh Feb 07 '24 at 20:43
  • @Mutoh "higher rates of divorce ... will be evidence for the weakening of family ties either way" - I couldn't care less about some vague appeal to "family ties". I care about increased happiness and reduced abuse, both of which could be a result of a higher rate of divorce (as I literally just argued... which you pretty much just ignored). If you think "family ties" is more important than happiness and avoiding abuse (which your position requires, mind you... as long as you don't address what I've said on that), then I can't really say much more to demonstrate the absurdity of your position. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 21:56
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    @Mutoh societies don't get married, individual people do. Individual people are "incompetent at forming stable, fulfilling marriages or preventing/fixing bad ones". They always have been, and probably always will. If you'd asked me what I wanted, I'd have said, "better people." – Scott Rowe Feb 19 '24 at 00:01
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While this is hard to give an objective answer to, I'll give some thoughts.

As far as I can tell, Ted Kaczynski seems to believe that we like to act in our self-interest. Communities arise from mutual self-interest: if two people both want fish in primitive society, they will collaborate to get some if it means they get more or get it faster.

I think there's a good case to be made that technology essentially widens these groups such that you are reliant on collaboration which doesn't directly serve your best interest. For example, previously, people might collaborate to travel because it benefits them. Now, for most people, some amount of transport which relies on big, societal institutions (insurance companies, quality regulations, publically funded public transport, etc.), is needed for their daily lives, in a sense forcing technology to be in our best interest by eliminating other options. We can also see this with the rise of nationalism with the industrial revolution, as nationalism is in some sense an allegiance to and preservation of something much wider than your little self-interested group. It could also be argued that things like the internet and big institutions play to our natural desire for community, but don't fully satisfy its purpose.

The main argument I could see against it is essentially a view that connection isn't a zero-sum game. We can be just as connected to wider society as we are to our smaller community, and the technological benefits that wider society gives us actually serve the smaller communities in developing and prospering. For example, people having higher-payed, more specialised, industrial jobs brings more money for the smaller community. If small communities had more autonomy, they would stick to techno-industrial society because it serves them.

edelex
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    Higher-paying, specialized, industrial jobs are only really available to those willing to leave their small communities and be absorbed into bigger, more depersonalized communities e.g. big cities, more prosperous countries. This is behind brain drain and urbanization, which can hardly be said to benefit smaller communities more. – Mutoh Feb 06 '24 at 19:12
  • @Mutoh I agree, I was more playing devil's advocate. – edelex Feb 06 '24 at 19:27
  • I've often wondered why people stay in very small towns, sometimes just an intersection of two mileroads in the country. I figure they must be trapped there by economic forces (can't sell their house or business). But I've seen a lot of abandoned houses and businesses too. – Scott Rowe Feb 19 '24 at 00:17
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I cannot really make out a question in the body of OP's post, so I assume all of that is just meant as context of what this question (in the title) is about. I also am not familiar with the ramblings of the Unabomber and will ignore that aspect. So:

Is it true that a technological society has to weaken family ties and local communities if it is to function efficiently?

Yes, even disregarding any revolutionary terrorist pamphlets, there seem to be good objective reasons why technological advancement (before the information age) is correlated with weakened families and local communities.

At least between, say, industrialization and before the "age of information" this surely has some base in reality. In pre-technological days, i.e. hunter/gatherer tribes of a size where everybody could still personally know everybody else and very strong intra-tribal bonds, it can be assumed that most roles of members of the tribe can in principle be done by anybody. I.e., anybody can find some utility either as hunter or gatherer or someone who cares for others, and so on and forth. Surely there is specialization, but not so much that a person has to actually move to a different tribe - in principle everybody could, and probably did, live very close to their family for their whole lives. Migration between tribes certainly happened too, and it probably helped the tribes by moving information around and freshening up the gene pool, and hence making things more efficient, but I would assume this was a relatively minor role; sticking with the tribe was probably always much much easier for all involved. (All of this is admittedly very much speculative and very hard to tell in hindsight; a commentor mentions inter-tribe marriage to keep the peace.)

In a technological era (after the advent of industrialization; before a high-end information age) there will be much, much higher specialization. Both within the dimensions of ability, as well as interest, which are arguably strongly interlinked via the observation that students who are interested in what they are studying have a much easier time with it, there is a much more intense stratification. And before the information age (i.e., at a time when people needed to actually physically move to where the work was), this moving-around surely lead to weakening family ties and local communities. If you move to another city, you are not in your family anymore; and if you don't have the internet yet, you can at best write snail mail or phone home regularly. This would often fall to the side, when the job got more intense. Also, when you move to a city, all local communities are foreign to you; and not every human has an easy time (or interest in) integrating into those.

Now, in the information age, especially since COVID, we see that it is very possible for information workers to stay at home. There are problems associated with that as well (isolation, depression and so on), some of them very dire (especially for kids who were isolated in their formative years), but not related to the aspects this question is about. Anecdotally, I see plenty of young adults who stay at home with their family much longer than it used to be - either because moving out is considered a waste of money or time, or because it's arguably often more convenient to stay home. One could hence imagine that a hypothetical society where all jobs are basically information based, i.e. possible to be done remotely, could revert back to much stronger family ties and local communities. (Disregarding for the sake of this question the problem that kids who were isolated seem to be having a hard time entering even local communities like they did before COVID...).

AnoE
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    "Migration between tribes certainly happened too, [...] but I would assume this was a relatively minor role; sticking with the tribe was probably always much much easier for all involved." << Actually I think that marriage was used regularly as a tool to prevent wars between tribes. If a few tribe members of tribe A move to tribe B to form families, and a few members of tribe B move to tribe A to form families, tribes A and B become much much less likely to fight eachother to death. So this happened regularly. At least that's what Jared Diamond argues in one of his books. – Stef Feb 06 '24 at 12:34
  • Thanks, have spent a N.B. on that, @Stef. – AnoE Feb 06 '24 at 15:03
  • I think people have been lonely and depressed in all kinds of situations for as long as there have been people. It has been asked whether the dramatic rise in autism corresponds with increasing awareness that it exists. Perhaps recent rises in measured depression rates go with looking for it? – Scott Rowe Feb 19 '24 at 00:13
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    Very possible, @ScottRowe. My answer focuses on describing a potential (to me, very likely) mechanism on how this could occur (and on the family ties, not on psychology); I have no statistical data etc. to say anything about whether that is indeed the case. That said, I don't even want to know how depressed a low-income person (so, probably the majority of people) in the early 1900's or earlier felt - must have been a very tough experience indeed, even compared to everything going on today, indeed. – AnoE Feb 19 '24 at 08:35
  • I often say that 99% of people where I live are better off than a king was long ago. Just safe water alone is a miracle, only 150 years old. No one had any sort of 'computer', cellphone etc when I was growing up, now these miracles are practically free. Perhaps 8 out of 9 billion people are depressed because they wouldn't have even been alive 200 years ago. – Scott Rowe Feb 19 '24 at 12:20
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    Absolutely, @ScottRowe. IMO, depression comes just as well from circumstances regressing (even if only slightly). I believe things perceived becoming worse is objectively much worse in itself than things being "absolutely" worse but improving slightly. – AnoE Feb 19 '24 at 14:04
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There's an interesting online book, Meaningness and Time by David Chapman, about people's ways of relating to meaning through history and the concomitant structures of the self. Chapman's model is based on a parallel with Robert Kegan's model of psychological development including through adulthood. In it there's a stage where rationality, or systematicity, is the governing principle, which for Chapman relates to the Modern period.

To Chapman, coming into systematicity is a key step both personally and historically, but it does involve some disentangling from personal bonds. You'll recognize similarities to your Ted Kaczynski quote in the excerpts below (from here; manually scroll the contents box to see where in the book you are). But Chapman gives no sense of 'society' alienating its members from the small scale in order to achieve efficiency; rather both appear as consequences of the 'systematic' way of being.

A systematic culture answers “why” questions with “becauses.” The answers are reasonably consistent and coherent. [...]

A systematic society has a multitude of social roles—unlike a choiceless society, which has only a few. [...] Roles fit together into complex institutions—church, state, corporation, community—that accomplish society’s proper goals. [...] Systematicity makes possible the division of labor. This crucial social technology enabled the spectacular economic, artistic, technological, and intellectual advances of the systematic era. [...]

In the choiceless mode, you are defined by your relationships; mainly family ones. [...] The function of your self is balancing your personal impulses with the needs of others, according to those roles. Morality—being a good person—means maintaining harmony by conforming to collective clan decisions. The choiceless self belongs, and is embedded in a web of mutual caring.

This sort of self is incompatible with complex social institutions. Efficient, specialized work gives you obligations to strangers, on the basis of explicit rules, not felt needs. A self devoted to balancing needs based on relationships cannot make sense of systematic society. It can only experience impersonal obligations as unjust demands imposed by the powerful [...]

Creating a systematic self involves hardening boundaries, so other people’s emotions don’t flood you and compel your actions. [...]

[Ethics] means doing what is necessary to maintain the system and uphold its values.

ariola
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Yes, but for different reasons.

Social ties are certainly weakened in modern, technological societies. We have seen, in just a few generations, a dramatic reduction of family sizes from multiple generations living and working together to the "nuclear family" of 4+dog, to in many western cities nearly half of all households being a single person.

The quoted manifesto does list some causes that appear obvious causes, such as a job market demanding more flexibility for moving.

However, it makes the usual mistake of doing single-cause attribution, when in reality multiple factors are at work. Some that I can think of:

  • increasing individuality - more of us than ever before desire to "live our own lives", so leaving home earlier is more common, and staying single longer is common, and wanting to live alone as part of not having to make compromises with other people is more common.
  • increasing age of marriage also means that people live as singles longer, before merging two households into one.
  • social circles are formed more around shared interests today than as a local community. This has serious consequences, as most people in your life you share only a hobby or workplace with, while a community such as a village shares a lot of day-to-day concerns with each other, so the bonds are stronger.

All of these things are indirectly correlated to technology, such as having more options to communicate in a wider area, etc.

Does "the system" profit from smaller communities? I don't think there is much evidence for that. Threats to "the system" (I'll keep it in quotation marks because I'm side-stepping the question what exactly that means) have rarely been local, close-knit communities. As far back as history provides records, any serious power has always been able to squash smaller communities if they had ideas of revolution. It is when those ideas become widespread that "the system" begins to crumble.

There is no evidence given in this quote nor any that I can immediately think of that would support the hypothesis that "the system" intentionally attempts to break social groups into smaller unities.

Tom
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  • It can be easily argued that the three other factors you provided are caused/enabled by technology, and that it's still part of "the industrial revolution and its consequences" – Mutoh Feb 06 '24 at 19:04
  • @Mutoh maybe, but that argument would have to be made, and there are likely other factors at work as well. Urbanization for example was certainly accelerated by industrialization, and wouldn't have gone to 50% in an agricultural society - but it is also a long-term trend over centuries, so it's definitely not JUST industrialization. – Tom Feb 07 '24 at 06:44
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You may be interested in the book The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous by Joseph Henrich (2020).

The author basically claims that due to a program started by the Catholic Church from late antiquity onward, which disrupted clan and kinship based social structures, people of Western European background are more prone to such cultural features as individualism, egalitarianism, literacy, analytical thinking (as opposed to system/relationship thinking), and inventiveness. (The very small jump from there to a technological society is left as an exercise to the OP.)

He spends some time/pages on presenting empirical data, stating that the extent to which cousin marriage is absent in a given society is a strong predictor of the prevalence of various of the above, and other, traits in that society.

What is fascinating about the book is the mechanism he describes that leads from a culture A to a culture B. (Dissolution of kinship ties leading to the spread and ubiquity of hi-tech a few centuries later - the opposite of what OP writes in the title of his question.) Obviously not all clear-cut in one direction, there are a lot of feedback loops, contributing factors, human ambiguities, etc. - it is certainly a possibility that more technology further weakens family ties, leading to more reliance on technology in place of that support network, etc. Not sure if there has been any research done on that.

An author is almost always enthusiastic and convincing about his own field, and I haven't looked into any critics or detractors.

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While I hesitate to respond to a quote of an angry, murderous person, Galileo said he could learn from anyone, so...

Given human nature hasn't changed in 10,000+ years, traditional family values have a time-tested place in any healthy human society. The development of technology is not the problem but the composite character of a society that determines how we spend our time researching and inventing(A.Huxley, 1945) and then how we use the end product.

Did the modern West's Industrial Revolution bring about the dissolution of small, close-knit communities? Sure, by providing economic opportunity in relatively small geographic areas(urbanization). The motivation ranged from survival to greed. No judgement, however cities increase the number and variety of people that we interact and as such reduces intimacy required for solid comradery. Technology and how we tend to use it also reduces practical interdependence thereby increasing the opportunity for division.

Our species is predominately social and traditional values encourage 'good'(amicable) character. That said, progressive ideas are also necessary. As a society develops over time we have to adapt foundation traditional values to new circumstances. I like metaphor of a pair of scissors where conservatives and progressives work together in opposition with moderates being the rivet they pivot on.


[Edit: Explainer for "bot" critic] OP: "Is it true that a technological society has to weaken family ties and local communities if it is to function efficiently?"

Maybe not "has to" but has.
At the beginning of my answer I distance myself from the quote from a lunatic which I essentially agree with. Then I defend our premise: Given human nature has not changed recently and "traditional values" which promote family ties due to increased likilihood of survival, have developed of a long period of time and lasted many challenges(Ibn Khaldun, 1377). Then I balance the defense stating the opposing NON-traditional values(progressive) have a legitimate place in society.

So, a fuller, more balanced response than the question requires but one I think appreciated by any soulful human beings who have read it-even if they disagree.

  • If you mean "traditional family values" in the sense that modern conservatives are promoting, that absolutely haven't been around for anywhere close to 10000+ years. Family values have varied greatly across time. The "traditional" values people speak of mostly originate from the 1950s or so. That period is also correlated with oppression of women and gay people. Just because something happened for some period in the past, doesn't mean it's better than what we have today. We were dying from any one of many easily treatable ailments for many millennia - does that mean that was good? – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 17:51
  • @NotThatGuy My position is that all organisms have a survival instinct and evolve against a hostile environment. Sticking with "traditional values," these are summed up in the Golden Rule(Treat others...). From the survival instinct we have drive to reproduce from which the basic and extended "family" developed. Slavery, women's historical roles, etc. all made sense in the historical context that they existed - until they didn't and there was push for change. Consider the likelihood of slavery existing today if it weren't for the Industrial Revolution which made slave owning impractical. – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 07 '24 at 18:09
  • So do you concede that "traditional family values" has not been around for 10000+ years? – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 18:35
  • What does traditional family values have to do with the golden rule? If by "traditional family values", you mean anything other than 1 man married to 1 woman, with kids, the man works and the woman is a stay-at-home mom - if you mean anything other than that, then you might want to use a different term, because that's how it's commonly used. And if you do mean that, then I'm sure you wouldn't want to only be allowed to have relationship with people you're not attracted to, and/or you're forced into a role in that relationship that you don't want. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 18:36
  • "Slavery ... made sense in the historical context that they existed - until they didn't and there was push for change" - I really didn't expect to have to argue against slavery today. Are you saying slavery was a good thing? If not, how then did it "make sense"? It also sounds really naive to say that slavery is "impractical" today. Also, you can't have both "this has stood the test of time" and also "historical context changes what makes sense" - those things are directly opposed to one another (and you do seem to be trying to apply both to the same idea of family values). – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 18:36
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    @NotThatGuy"do you concede that "traditional family values" has not been around for 10000+ years?" I'm saying basic or nuclear family = man/woman+kids is the result of evolution driving the species survive and hence, procreate with notable exceptions amongst royalty and the otherwise wealthy. – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 07 '24 at 19:07
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    @NotThatGuy "What does traditional family values have to do with the golden rule?" Both are products of evolution. The golden rule is the basis of all virtue (see Aristotle's doctrine of the mean) which are attributes of Character. Character enables human beings to get along, to develop sincere, caring relationships that is not possible if we rely on an impersonal authority haphazardly enforcing specific laws.
    Character is destiny said Heraclitus and per my experience he's still correct.
    – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 07 '24 at 19:19
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    "Are you saying slavery was a good thing?" I'm saying that in the context of history it is understandable. That if you or I had been born in ancient Athens to a rich family, we would have been slave owners. Before Ind. Revolution the labor required to produce enough food for a society to survive likely required labor organized as slavery. Since that time the rich have discovered more humane ways to organize labor. Not all slaves were poorly treated. Consider Aesop, Epictetus, and Joseph(from the Bible). Then as now it's better to be useful! – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 07 '24 at 19:29
  • Given your apparent admission that slavery was indeed a good thing, I don't think I need to say anything more to demonstrate to others how completely absurd, inhumane and callous your position is. You also contradict yourself in every second sentence, and you have some very, very incorrect ideas of how evolution works. I'm sure you can find someone who'll argue with you about whether slavery was good, but I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks it's okay to treat human beings as property. – NotThatGuy Feb 07 '24 at 19:42
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    @NotThatGuy "Given your apparent admission that slavery was indeed a good thing," I did NOT say slavery was "good." I said it was understandable and I say inevitable. We do agree we've reached a point of complete disconnect in our discussion. – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 07 '24 at 20:01
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    That point of disconnect should come w the discovery that the contention over "traditional family values" stems from the motivation to politicize the term within the context of contemporary American politics and is rendered disingenuous by a rhetorical ploy to characterize this answer's author as committed to the proposition that slavery is good. Ideologues curiously find themselves compelled to shoehorn discourse into a false dichotomy with a lack of awareness of their own motivation to do so. Such is discourse on the Interwebs, alas. – J D Feb 08 '24 at 08:29
  • As it’s currently written, your answer is unclear. Please [edit] to add additional details that will help others understand how this addresses the question asked. You can find more information on how to write good answers in the help center. – Community Feb 10 '24 at 14:27
  • @Community done – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 10 '24 at 17:11
  • Have you tried searching for a job or a mate without using websites, or confined your search to a small village? Cities bringing us in to contact with a greater and more varied group of people is extremely helpful. Have you read "No Exit"? Care to spend eternity with just a few unchosen people? – Scott Rowe Feb 18 '24 at 23:50
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    @ScottRowe I would be happy to discuss the pros and cons of urban life with you, however I've been previously chastised by moderation for not using Chat for prolonged discussions. I will say I have not read the book you refer to, but I did post an answer today regarding existentialism, which is not the one above. – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 19 '24 at 01:28
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I scanned the other answers (not comments) and thought these brief and relevant to the discussion.

"Technological society" defined:

"The chief complaint that sets existentialism over against positivism in diametric opposition is this : the claim of science and technology to expand the capacity of the human person for life and happiness is basically fraudulent, because technological society is not the least interested in values, still less in persons : it is concerned purely and simply with the functioning of its own processes. Human beings are used merely as means to this end, and the one significant question it asks in their regard is not who they are but how they can be most efficiently used.” --Thomas Merton, Mystics and Zen Masters, 1961

How functioning community works and the consequences of dysfunction:

"Subsistence-level hunters aren’t necessarily more moral than other people; they just can’t get away with selfish behavior because they live in small groups where almost everything is open to scrutiny. Modern society, on the other hand, is a sprawling and anonymous mess where people can get away with incredible levels of dishonesty without getting caught. What tribal people would consider a profound betrayal of the group, modern society simply dismisses as fraud. … This fundamental lack of connectedness allows people to act in trivial but incredibly selfish ways. … That diminishes you morally far more than it diminishes your country financially.” --Sebastian Junger, Tribe, 2016

  • I've often wondered how society can work against the good of the people it is made up of? Wouldn't the people change the society? I guess it's like someone jumping to their death when none of the cells in their body particularly want to die. We're carried along like lemmings on a calving glacier. – Scott Rowe Feb 18 '24 at 23:45
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    Re: “wondered how society can work against the good of the people it is made up of” It happens at a smaller scale even: "In every Church, in every institution, there is something which sooner or later works against the very purpose for which it came into existence.” --C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm, 1963 AND also at a civilization level, with generally predictable stages which maybe you are referring to: Khaldun(1377), others, Dalio(2021), Urban(2023). I have a spreadsheet comparing these, if interested. – Mark_NoBadCake Feb 19 '24 at 01:35