3

I would argue that it is not possible to create a simulation of a world within a world.

I can only imagine that a simulation of our world could be done within a computer?

A computer has a finite memory, however, our world is possibly not finite?

So would a simulation of a world within a computer not be a full replication of our world because of the limitations of memory?

Or is there another method of creating a simulation of our world?

J D
  • 26,214
  • 3
  • 23
  • 98
8Mad0Manc8
  • 723
  • 5
  • 19
  • You wouldn't need to simulate the whole world, just the part perceived by the people in the simulation. For example it's wasteful to simulate each star and planet of a far away galaxy when all you have to display is a colored spot. – armand Jan 04 '24 at 19:20
  • So it's not a full simulation of a world. Would it be possible to detect that incomplete world from the inhabitants of that simulation? @armand – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 19:24
  • @armand Just to clarify the observable universe is finite at any one moment in time however the observable universe 'grows' every second and storage is finite, and you would need the information beyond the observable universe, and that is possibly infinite? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 19:52
  • @8Mad0Man8 What about the idea that our world is a simulation by a computer program? Or that our world is a simulation by the thoughts of a superhuman intelligence? – Jo Wehler Jan 04 '24 at 20:12
  • @JoWehler It is possible that a computer program could generate a world and only display the information to its inhabitants are currently observing and it could randomly generate information outside the observable universe however it would have to remember that information it generated in storage if it were to be viewed by another inhabitant again, storage would have to be continually added to that computer ad infinitum? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 20:20
  • That is, if the simulation is designed to run forever and humans set to observe every single bit of it. But the observability you are talking about is a theoretical limit, yet there is also a practical limit to observation due to the dimness of far objects. The point being, with a few clever tricks the amount of storage needed can be dramatically reduced, just like a video game does not render it's entire world at each frame, just what needs to be. A civilization able to master the simulation technology you imagine would have no difficulty coming up with those optimizations. – armand Jan 04 '24 at 20:21
  • @armand Cynically, do you think any civilisation would last long enough for them to have that technology :-) – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 20:30
  • @armand I've been pondering my question and your comments and the answer below. I looked on the web about how much information can a atom store and there are reports that one bit of information can be stored in an atom. Would this limit a possible simulation machine if an atom can only store information less than that of itself? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 21:07
  • Define 'world'. What if there is a 'more real' higher dimensional reality, which we are to like 2D computer game characters to us. You are using the 'Argument By Lack of Imagination'. Turing Equivalence means everything can be simulated on any computer meeting the standard, given enough time. See: https://xkcd.com/505 – CriglCragl Jan 04 '24 at 22:42
  • The ability to simulate a lifeless world (climate, gravity, geology and tectonics is already possible. Life really complicates things. – Idiosyncratic Soul Jan 07 '24 at 19:29

5 Answers5

2

At face-value, this is demonstrably possible. A video game is a simulation of a world. Some video-games have mini games inside them, a simulation inside a simulation. A movie, in some sense, is a simulation of a world, and many movies contain other movies inside them. I assume these examples wouldn't qualify in your view, but that raises the question "what counts as a simulation?" for your purposes.

I'm going to assume you mean something that could convincingly replace the world as we experience it. (Let's avoid the entire question of consciousness by assuming a brain-in-a-vat setup. The brain is conscious, but all its sensory data is generated by a computer.) Could a simulation of that caliber contain another simulation of that caliber wholly inside itself, where the child simulation must be built entirely from entities of the parent simulation (we can't cheat and just simulate both worlds at the root level)? In principle, there doesn't seem to be anything that would prevent this in terms of overall mechanics. Just as an emulation of any computer can be built on any other computer, it should be possible to build one simulation inside another.

However, your question specifically calls out the question of size. Can a universe of the same size/complexity as the parent universe be built inside of it? Intuitively, the answer is no, the child universe would need to be smaller (simpler). However, there are ways around this. There's an old stage trick where the painted backdrop makes the actors look as if they are in the wide-open outdoors, when in fact they are in a small enclosed room. Similarly, many video games use a "skybox" to make the in-game universe seem big and expansive, even though only a portion of it has actually been constructed. Any given person has personally experienced only an infinitesimal portion of our seemingly infinite universe. If it were simulated, it's possible it could be far smaller than we think.

Chris Sunami
  • 29,852
  • 2
  • 49
  • 101
  • I've looked on the web while I've been pondering the other answer and the comments to my question to how much information an atom can store and currently in this world or 'simulation' there are reports that one bit of information can be stored in an atom. Does this theoretically limit the size of a simulation within this world and if this world is not a simulation does it also limit the possible size and number of simulations within it? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 21:41
  • @8Mad0Manc8 One atom should be able to contain a lot more than 1 bit of information. idk mass, charge, position, electron states, spin, ... etc also don't confuse simulation and emulation. Simulation is trying to be as close to the real thing as possible while emulation is just about recreating an effect. – haxor789 Jan 04 '24 at 22:18
  • @haxor789 I've not included enough information in the other comment. You comments are correct an atom in itself contains more than one bit of information. From the web we are currently able to store one bit of information in an atom. Your comment is precisely what I am saying, an atom can only currently store less than content of information of itself. So would this limitation of currently one bit limit the number and size of possible simulated worlds within one another ? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 22:28
  • @8Mad0Manc8 I think it's the other way around one bit is the atom of the web, there is no information that is smaller than 1 bit. But a real life atom would require more than 1 bit to be described and conversely (depending on the implementation) 1 bit in a computer requires much more than 1 atom to be realized. Though it's not clear whether that reduction in memory is necessarily a problem as you're going for an approximation anyway, weren't you? – haxor789 Jan 05 '24 at 10:36
  • @haxor789 I think we've got our wires crossed somewhere here :-). Take a look at this article https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170309120521.htm it should clear things up. – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 05 '24 at 12:26
  • @8Mad0Manc8 Oh so that refers to the last part where I said that the implementation of 1 bit requires much more than 1 atom (which it does the article says that atm millions of atoms are required for that), it's just that they propose a method which cuts that down to 1 atom. Though that doesn't mean that this is the limit, it's just that doing that would already be a major breakthrough with regard to where we are right now. – haxor789 Jan 05 '24 at 12:30
  • @haxor789 Yes if that method works then we will be able to store one bit per atom However to describe the state of an atom, which would be necessary for a simulation that went down to quantum levels, we would need more than one atom to contain the state of one atom in a simulator at the moment. So I would argue that a simulation would not be a full simulation of a base reality and there would be a limit to nested simulations. I hope you understand, my mind sometimes gets disconnected from what I am trying to express with it :-) – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 05 '24 at 12:55
1

Depends on what you mean.

It is not possible to generate a full resolution simulation of an entire system within that system. This is intuitively obvious. Imagine the smallest possible thing that you could use to store or compute data with. Your base system has n such things, and you need at least one such thing to represent the existence (much less the behavior) of each of those n things. Therefore, to simulate n things, you need n things, or the entire system you want to simulate.

It is possible to generate a low resolution simulation of a system in that system, and it might be possible to generate a full resolution simulation of part of a system within a system. If you only want to simulate n things, and you have n^100 things, you can at least theoretically simulate n things.

If we are in a simulation, we are almost certainly not in a full resolution simulatiom. Within our reality, there are real physical constraints to creating even a theoretical system that could simulate observed reality. Dodges around this, like "we could simulate only what people are looking at" ignore the difficulty of both tracking what people are looking at and ensuring that there is consistency between those things across time and space. That is, one person observes a cloud, and then goes inside, and then goes back outside. The system, when it "recreates" the cloud, has to put it in the right place based on a bunch of particle physics calculations that are exactly as difficult as simulating the thing all along.

It IS possible that we are in a lower resolution simulation of a vastly complex hyper-reality.

philosodad
  • 3,313
  • 16
  • 28
0

Elon Musk argues that it is most likely that we live in a simulation:

https://youtu.be/A3VPRow8xI4

In other words, as I understand the discussion, Elon asserts that there is "base reality". Everything else is a simulation perhaps nested in a simulation in daisy-chains that somehow link back to the base reality.

In that case I map base reality to The Great Mystery. But I have no idea how to calculate the odds or probability that we are living in a simulation and not in base reality. Why? Because I exist with probability p = 1, the certain event, and I have no knowledge of how many nested simulations could be in the chain of simulations between me and The Great Mystery.

I would have to use some uncertain assumptions derived from my perceptions of reality to speculatively calculate the odds of existing in a simulation that is not so-called base reality.

I am fairly certain that each mind or body-mind of a living animal on earth generates the subjective perception of reality as a local simulation, that is, as a model of The Great Mystery arising in the mind. I could be a brain in a vat with electrodes stimulating the neurons such that the brain simulates my experience of a mind in my body and a body in my mind and my body-mind in the context of so-called external reality. So then I am back to The Great Mystery as base reality.

SystemTheory
  • 1,612
  • 4
  • 8
  • I agree there has to be a base reality otherwise you have an infinite regress and I don't like the idea of that. This world whether it be simulated or not has an atom which is possibly the smallest unit of storage. I have been on the web and read whilst I have been reacting to comments. I cannot verify the legitimacy of this howver that currently an atom can store only one bit of information. Does this limit the number and size of possible simulation within one another? II can certainly imagine an atom can only store a finite number of bits. – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 22:41
  • @CriglCragl Many legitimate scientists attempt to calculate the odds or probability of life emerging on earth in the dynamic cosmos or universe. This whole calculation is absurd because I must exist with probability p = 1 in the reality or universe of concern in order to perform the highly speculative and uncertain calculation about a counterfactual possible reality. Philosophers are just as prone to making calculations based on speculative assumptions as anyone else the test of ideas is the mutual effort to reason in the context of whatever reality one inhabits. – SystemTheory Jan 04 '24 at 23:30
  • @SystemTheory: We can test counterfactuals about atoms dice & coins to tens of decimal places. Your argument seems to deny the possibility of doing physics, apparently arbitrarily. See 'Probability of something given that time will exist forever' https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/70861/probability-of-something-given-that-time-will-exist-forever/70869#70869 – CriglCragl Jan 05 '24 at 00:32
  • "I have no idea how to calculate the odds or probability that we are living in a simulation and not in base reality." Yes, but if base reality = dark energy/dark matter and we are in a simulation, physicists have calculated the ratio of base reality to our simulated universe. – Michael Hall Jan 05 '24 at 00:49
  • @CriglCragl - I did not deny that physics or human reasoning is possible based on counterfactuals. In terms of coin flip we have the memory of three options: heads; tails; edge. These memories of reality form the map of likely outcomes. Predicting the evolution of a counter-factual reality from such models of reality is absurd to say the least when we depend on reality to perform the speculative calculations! But hey maybe you live in a reality where absurd speculative calculations pass as doing physics in the drama that is human interactions? To me it is imagination run wild with speculation. – SystemTheory Jan 05 '24 at 01:14
  • @Michael Hall - Calculations of dark matter and dark energy are known as fudge factors in proposed models of the cosmos. Similar to Einstein's blunder: https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm The calculations indicated that the universe was changing with time. Prevailing scientific opinion held that the universe was static, so Einstein introduced a mathematical "fudge factor" into his equations, known as the cosmological constant, or lambda. If dark matter/energy are "base reality" it is only the absurd fudge factor ratio of "base reality" to our incomplete reality model. – SystemTheory Jan 05 '24 at 01:51
  • @SystemTheory, I believe Einstein's cosmological constant was much, much smaller. My understanding is that dark matter and energy is actual matter and energy, but of a form and dimension we are unable to actually detect by any current known methods. Otherwise it is a real as everything else. Anyway, if your the net result of your "fudge factor" is that 95% of everything that exists in the unverse is "fudge" then you really aren't fudging anymore, your methods are just flat out, extremely wrong... – Michael Hall Jan 05 '24 at 02:20
  • @Michael Hall - Fudge factor is the accepted term for introducing a factor to make the math model fit the empirical observations when the model itself does not fit the data. If the conventional model of reality cannot explain 95% then it is a poor model and only proves my point that base reality has attributes of The Great Mystery. So far dark matter/energy only explain observed effects as fudge factor adjustments to the models that assume no existence of mysterious sources of gravity or expansion of the universe. What you believe to be true is distinct from recognizing fudge factors as true. – SystemTheory Jan 05 '24 at 02:26
  • @SystemTheory, if a model is 95% wrong I wouldn't even call it a valid model. At all. In no other discipline could you get away with such an egregious error and hope to retain any credibility whatsoever. Anyway, it isn't what I "believe to be true", this speculation as to what it might be has been widely published. – Michael Hall Jan 05 '24 at 02:33
  • @Michael Hall - Fudge factors do not render an invalid model valid. The model that is invalid - because it cannot explain cosmic motion - has visible sources of mass that influence the observable motion of celestial bodies. Newton and Einstein used visible matter to explain motion using theories of gravitation. Theories of gravity based on visible matter are valid to explain motion in many contexts but mysterious sources of force (called dark matter/energy) are added as fudge factors to explain the observed cosmic motion. God is invisible but creation is visible so I can't contradict you. – SystemTheory Jan 05 '24 at 02:51
  • I don't think we actually disagree, I just don't know what your point is... – Michael Hall Jan 05 '24 at 02:54
  • @Michael Hall - CERN explains dark matter and dark energy as mysterious sources of force used to explain the otherwise unexplained features of cosmic motion derived from models of gravitation and momentum based on visible celestial bodies: https://home.cern/science/physics/dark-matter. The visible sources of force and the concepts of momentum and energy are the valid foundations for using dark matter and dark energy as fudge factors that account for the visible data using mysterious sources of force. Maybe reality is more mysterious than our best models that are valid in some limited context. – SystemTheory Jan 05 '24 at 03:05
0

That pretty much depends on how you'd define "simulation" and "world" and to the level of detail that you want to consider.

Chris sunami already gave a very good answer, so probably rather read that instead.

First of all you need to distinguish between a simulation and an emulation. The first is an attempt of a practical recreation of something as close to the real thing as you can get (which leaves a lot of wiggle room in terms of the degree of detail), while an emulation is just meant to replicate an effect. So a simulation is something like a crash test, a re-enactment or if you really want to go to computers a computer simulation in which you idk track the behavior of a physical property by incrementally applying the relevant laws of physics that influence it. Idk so if you drop a ball you might look at it's xyz position and track it through the progression of time while the ball is under the effect of gravity for example.

So if you stick to the thing computers were always made for: games. (Let's be real scientific simulations are also just big children playing around with sophisticated toys...). Then you can distinguish for example between the kind of simulations that recreate a universe with self-consistent rules, so for example all objects in this universe are effected by gravity while the less physically inclined game dev might just recreate the same effect by moving sprites representing objects from the top of the screen to the bottom.

So it's essentially the difference between throwing an apple up into the air and catching it and having a picture of an apple tied to a stick and move that stick up or down.

And ironically the former might be easier than the latter with regards to memory consumption. Think about what it would mean to "emulate" if you time traveled to the medieval period. Just find or recreate a setting that would have fit and be yourself... done. While if you wanted it to look and feel functionally equivalent without actually being the same, you'd end up with something like a D&D group larping in an urban setting creating the world by using tomes worth of rules, regulations and explanations to replicate a realness that isn't real.

On the other hand it's quite simply to entrap you in a very large emulated universe, like idk imagine a standing in a field with crops above you is an blue sky with clouds that you can reach, to fill it a bit you might scatter some trees. Now if you make that landscape large enough and make it so that if you'd leave the area you'd reenter on the other side you could recreate the impression of an infinite universe within finite space. Similarly it's totally possible to do that same thing within that universe and so on.

Sure if you wanted to simulate that in an emulation you'd run out of memory because the simulation would need to make use of the resources of the emulation while still being active. That being said if you just emulate that as well you could also show a loading screen and load a different level once the observer looks at it, so it could even have the same size.

Though when it comes to simulations you could also have people in a future society re-enacting a past society that, re-enacts an even more in the past society. So a simulation in a simulation in a simulation. Does that count? I mean they still happen in the same base reality and as such obey to the same base reality laws yet for all intents and purposes the "world", the experienced reality of those larping that would be different. Though it would still be a self-consisting universe in which (with reasonable caveats) things happen because of real life interactions not because of some narrator or rule book telling you that things happen.

haxor789
  • 5,843
  • 7
  • 28
-1

We can physically build the system we want to test and actually do the experiment. However we currently have no capacity to simulate anything at all without extreme simplifying assumptions. This includes even things conventionally thought of as nothing, like microscopic regions of vacuum. This includes both doing the simulation on paper or with the aid of a computer. Simplifying assumptions are known to be false and to generate false conclusions. Simulation works despite this because we carefully match our simplifying assumptions with the kinds of things we're trying to simulate, so that for the questions we want to ask, whether or not the assumption is true turns out to be irrelevant. It is currently a scientific, not an engineering constraint: given arbitrarily long time and arbitrarily great resources, we still have no capacity to simulate anything at all without needing simplifying assumptions. But to simulate anything at all such that you can ask any question you like about it is to simulate without simplifying assumptions. To be able to simulate anything at all without needing simplifying assumptions is to have a perfect model of physical law over the relevant scale. To be able to simulate it with observers inside requires a perfect model of physical law over the relevant scale that includes the observer within the system, an added hurdle.

We do not currently know whether it is ultimately a scientific or a logical constraint. That is, it might turn out to be possible to simulate something, or it might be a priori impossible, depending on the character of yet-unknown laws or meta-laws of physics.

If it turns out to be possible to simulate something, we do not know whether or not there will be physically-imposed constraints which pose unbridgeable engineering challenges even if you give the civilization that's supposed to do the simulation as much resources as it's physically possible to have. If your simulator needs to mass more than a galactic cluster in order to hold the state of anything bigger than a snowflake, for example, you're just out of luck (and you should really have just saved a few billion years of effort and built a snow machine). "Bigger" might not even make sense from this perspective - it may turn out that the only way to really simulate anything at all is to simulate the whole universe that it's a part of all at once.

So an honest statement of the simulation hypothesis(a) really runs:

  1. suppose without evidence that it is possible to have a perfect model of physical law over the relevant scale. (And suppose without evidence that that will also mean that we figure out what consciousness actually is in the first place.)
  2. suppose without evidence that it is possible for a civilization to last long enough to get such a model
  3. suppose without evidence that it is possible for such a civilization to simulate macroscopic objects with such a model
  4. suppose without evidence that it is possible that the simulation of such a model can include our state and every measurable state between our current state and a future (simulated) state in which we or, if the simulation is sufficiently vast or long-lasting as to extend to things unlike us, aliens, can achieve the above.
  5. suppose without evidence that the number of such simulations is at least one
  6. then it is more likely that we are a simulation (in a simulation (in a simulation)) than not.

6 follows from 1-5, but that's a whole lot of absent evidence to base suppositions on. I suspect that if "I have played video games; I imagine that I can imagine being a character from a video game, therefore I could be a character from a video game" wasn't really underwriting the intuition, the simulation hypothesis would be a one-line mention in a footnote about obscure iterations of the brain-in-a-vat scenario, of interest only to the most pointy-headed of philosophers.


(a) Makes no in-principle-testable predictions about doable experiments, therefore not a hypothesis in the scientific sense.

g s
  • 5,767
  • 2
  • 6
  • 24
  • I have just looked on the web after pondering my question and your answer and the comments. About what information an atom can store.There are reports that a single atom can store 1 bit of information and could be used in quantum computing. Do you think one bit per atom in that quantum computer is enough to simulate the world. Is there more information to an atom than it could store in itself? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 20:57
  • What are you saying, that it's not a good simulation if we don't go down to quarks & every detail? What you say is "no capacity to simulate anything at all". How can you possibly define those terms for that to make sense? We simulate all sorts of things. You've just given random opinions, which are obviously wrong from the most cursory look at the relevant matetial, like Turing Completeness. – CriglCragl Jan 04 '24 at 22:52
  • @8Mad0Manc8: Quabtum systems like atoms can be used to make qubits, which are fundamentally different to bits, & have the potential to increase in power exponentially with the number of qubits delicalised together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubit – CriglCragl Jan 04 '24 at 22:55
  • @CriglCragl Can an individual atom be one or more qubits? – 8Mad0Manc8 Jan 04 '24 at 23:39
  • @criglcragl I mean what the sentence says: "we have no capacity to simulate without simplifying assumptions" – g s Jan 05 '24 at 01:44
  • I chopped the sentence up into bite size pieces, as it was pretty unwieldy. – g s Jan 05 '24 at 02:00