So far in my music learning journey I've been quite happy with the Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half tone construction of major scales. That is until I came across the D Major Scale. D E F# G A B C# Why does D Major Scale end in C#, surely that is a whole tone up from B not a half, why is the last note not C?
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Dom May 01 '19 at 16:42
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T T S T T T S is the pattern for major scale notes. So W W H W W W H, as you state, is another way to describe it. Look at the last part - it's a semitone, or a half step, isn't it? That then is the space between the penultimate note and the root note again. A half step below D has to be C♯.
Maybe the confusion is that TTS etc is the 7 intervals between the 8 notes. Scales start and end on the root.
You're right that B to C# is a tone, but that gap is the one before the S. TTSTTS. Making the major in D D E F♯ G A B C♯ D
Tim
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@Arthur Zero-indexing in music theory is just in general a good way to make everyone hate you :) – user45266 May 01 '19 at 19:17
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1@user45266 And one-indexing is the reason we have 8va and 15va when 7va and 14va (or whatever letters are appropriate) wouldd be much more intuitive. – Arthur May 01 '19 at 20:15
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I get the Ws (whole steps) and Hs (half steps), but what do the Ts and Ss stand for? – jvriesem May 01 '19 at 21:56
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@Arthur - music isn't like a stop-watch or a rule, which start at zero. The first note/chord has to be labelled '1', as it's - well - the first. How could it be construed as 0? – Tim May 02 '19 at 06:57
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@Tim The same way any 0-indexing works: Zero steps up from the base note. – Arthur May 02 '19 at 07:03
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@Arthur - something like the first person in the queue would be number zero... Blankets don't cover everything! – Tim May 02 '19 at 07:29
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@Tim I'm not saying it fits every situation, no. And I'm not saying zero-indexing would be better in this case. One-indexing and zero-indexing both have their merits, and the convention is strong with this specific case. The only thing I'm saying is that having an octave be 8, and two octaves be 15 is a drawback for one-indexing. – Arthur May 02 '19 at 07:34
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@Arthur - intuitive - no. But since the root note in the middle only gets counted once, it's logical. Sadly, intuitive and logical aren't always in the same bed. – Tim May 02 '19 at 07:36
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@Tim If we used zero-indexing, then in this specific case logical and intuitive would go together, with 7 and 14. That is my point. (Note that zero-indexing is quite intuitive too: scales are called "scales" because they are associated with a staircase, and what is the first step of a staircase? It's usually not the base of the stairs, but rather one step up.) At any rate, music convention is not going to change in my lifetime, so I'm not really arguing here. I'm just musing over what could have been. – Arthur May 02 '19 at 07:47
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@Arthur - not understanding why 7 has any relationship to octave and certainly 14 has with double octave. Neither logical, nor intuitive to me! You're right about the steps (actually ladders, but same concept. French for scale is echelle - ladder). But that's it for now. Agree to differ. – Tim May 02 '19 at 07:56
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@Tim The relationship is that what we call an octave with one-indexing (doubling the frequency of the sound wave, if we want to be independent of naming conventions), would be called a septime (or a seventh) with zero-indexing, as it resides 7 steps up from the base note. – Arthur May 02 '19 at 08:01
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@Arthur - fair comment. It's just that 'octave', although possibly a misnomer, is so entrenched, it's most likely here for good (or bad...). Not moving to chat! – Tim May 02 '19 at 08:04
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@Tim I think I'm done here too. Also, about the ladder: Scala is Italian for stairs, and overall, Italian has been more important for music terminology than has French. – Arthur May 02 '19 at 08:15
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"Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half " takes you from D to the D an octave higher. The last half is the gap between C# and D.
Нет войне
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I've been quite happy with the Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half tone construction of major scale ...
How was this with understanding the major scale of G?
C major scale = C - D - EF - G - A - BC =
G major scale = G - A - BC - D - EF - G??? -> EF is a halfstep between the 6th and 7th degree! What we need is a whole step from 6 to 7 and a half from 7 to 8:
We get there by raising the 7th degree a half step by a sharp (#):
F needs a sharp # to become a major 7 and we have a new scale with a lead tone F#.
look at this picture:
If you start with D then the 6th degree is B. We want to have now a step of a whole tone between 6 and seven but B-C is only a halftone: the 7th degree must be C#, (as before F as the 7th degree of G had to be raised to F#.
If you split the C major scale between F and G you get 2 identical half parts (TETRACHORDS) WWH and WWH with a W (whole tone) between these tetrachords.
You can develop all major scales of the circle of fifths by cutting the upper half of a scale (2nd tetrachord) and notate it as the 1st tetrachord as it has they have the same distance (intervals).
You will get now a new scale that begins with the 5th degree of the scale we had before. Then you continue adding (constructing) the 2nd tetrachord of this new scale.
You can continue with all half parts of the scales in the same way and you will discover that you'll always have to raise the seventh degree by adding a sharp # to get a halftone at the last step 7-8 and construct by this a scale with a lead tone to the tonic (root tone of the scale or 1st degree = I).
If you follow this indication you will develope all #-scales and also the circle of 5ths and you will understand what you are doing and where the circle comes from.
The scale with flats below on the other site of the circle of 5ths will be explained another time or you may find it out yourself now.
Albrecht Hügli
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Am I crazy or is there something wrong with that G Major scale on the 4th row of scales? Should that be listed as the F# major scale? – GHP Apr 30 '19 at 13:49
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1you are not crazy, you are the most smartest one here in! Thank you. I was leaving ... but now I've edited the rows in the tabulatura and also the label of the F# scale. – Albrecht Hügli Apr 30 '19 at 15:01
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1@Hearth - H is German (and some others) for what the rest of the world call B Their B is Bb. The space between B(H) and C and E and F is a semitone, so they're printed together. – Tim Apr 30 '19 at 16:50
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@Tim Ah, thank you. I'm relatively new to music, so I wasn't aware of this notational convention. – Hearth Apr 30 '19 at 16:50
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I will have to edit this too, thank you , Tim. I first "read" H is German (and understood you mean H(ügli) ;) – Albrecht Hügli Apr 30 '19 at 17:24
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C# is in the D major scale, because the ^7 scale degree is a half step below the tonic - the ^1 degree D.
...C#, surely that is a whole tone up from B not a half
Yes, but that is the position of the half step. The half step is between C# and D, between the ^7 and ^1 scale degrees.
...why is the last note not C?
The last note of the D major scale won't be any kind of C. Not C, nor C#. The last note will be D.
I think you should try learning about the scale in terms of:
- scale degree names where those names can be numeric like
^1, solfege likeDO, or named like tonic. - the interval between the tonic and the other scale degrees: the dominant is a perfect fifth (P5) above the tonic, or the mediant is a major third above the tonic, etc.
- the intervals between various scale degrees - in this regard some scale degree relationships are more significant that others: the half steps between
MItoFAandTItoDOare very important, the interval between degrees^4and^7is an augmented fourth (A4.) - inversions of intervals in the scale: the
^3degree is a _major third above^1and its inversion is the^3a minor sixth below^1.
When you think of the scale in terms of the exact spelling like D E F# G A B C# D you can call that concrete. It's just the specific tones.
When you think in terms on my bullet list you are dealing with relative relationships.
Eventually, after you learn the scale spellings, key signatures, how to play them on your instruments, you will shift from that concrete thinking to a relative relationship frame of mind. Those relative relationships are what becomes most important in music theory.
Michael Curtis
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I believe you are confusing modes with scales.
Let's take the C Major Scale: C D E F G A B.
- If we want to know the modes, we keep the same notes, but change the key and structure.
- If we want to know its transpositions, we keep the same structure, but change the key and notes.
Example:
D Major Scale has the same structure as C Major Scale, but transposed 2 steps up:
D E F# G A B C#.C Major Scale Mode#2 is actually D Dorian Scale, it has the same notes as C Major Scale, but a different structure and key:
D E F G A B C.C Major Scale and D Major Scale share the same structure:
{0,2,4,5,7,9,11}C Major Scale and D Dorian Scale share the same notes:
C D E F G A B
Hope this takes away some confusion.