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In an orchestra scenario, under what circumstances, when the piano and violins are tuned to 440Hz (as shown on the tuner) together, will the harmonic series between the two differs and make the sound produced less harmonious?

Vehrnesto
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  • The harmonic series of a piano and a violin playing a given note will always be different - not only in the average levels of each harmonic, but also in the way the levels of each of those harmonics (and even their exact frequency) changes over time. However, I'm don't see why you think that the harmonic series of notes differing necessarily makes the sound less harmonious? – Нет войне Jan 03 '19 at 09:09
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    Also bear in mind that as violins are played with vibrato, this changes the exact note played, which is going to be in variance to the (theoretical, but unrealistic) single note a piano will produce. Chorus pedals, mainkly for guitars, were invented for just the purpose of subtly varying the pitch of a note played. It makes it sound richer, and not usually perceived as 'out of tune'. – Tim Jan 03 '19 at 09:19
  • "Less harmonius" is almost entirely a function of consonant vs. dissonant intervals, not the fundamentals & overtones thereof. – Carl Witthoft Jan 03 '19 at 14:35
  • @CarlWitthoft, dissonance and consonance occur precisely because of the overtones clashing between the two tones. You don't have one without the other. –  Jan 03 '19 at 16:24
  • @ggcg if the fundamentals don't clash, the dissonance amongst the overtones will be minimal. Two fundamentals will combine to produce (freq1-freq2) and (freq1 + freq2) ; the first of these is typically subsonic or simply not perceived well. The second is what produces the consonance/dissonance, not the overtones produced by each instrument. – Carl Witthoft Jan 03 '19 at 16:27
  • @topomorto, You state that the level and time dependence of each harmonic are different but this does not lead to dissonance or consonance between two tones or instruments playing in harmony. It is the sequence of harmonics itself. The higher strings on a piano can exhibit harmonics that do not follow the integer patter of ideal strings due to them behaving more like thin beams. This creates a lot of dissonance as the very first two overtones can be out of tune relative to what we are used to. –  Jan 03 '19 at 16:27
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    @CarlWitthoft It is the overtones that cause us to hear a "clashing" between fundamentals. Have you read Helmholtz's work on this? –  Jan 03 '19 at 16:28
  • To the author of the question. I think you need to add a little richness to you question. There are several factors that could cause the "harmonic series" of instruments in tune to not line up. But I think people will miss interpret your question. In my comments I quote one example, Tim mentions another but that is performance based. There could be other reasons for deviation from the "ideal" spectrum model that are purely physics based. Is this what you were after? –  Jan 03 '19 at 16:31
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    @CarlWitthoft, You are referring to sum and difference tone and you are incorrect in stating that this, applied only to fundamentals, is the cause. A M7 is almost as far apart in pitch as an octave but as dissonant as a m2. This is only due to the clashing of overtones with each other and or the fundamental. –  Jan 03 '19 at 16:36
  • @ggcg what I'm saying is that while of course the overall sensation of consonance / dissonance is affected by the harmonic structures of the notes in question, the simple fact that two series of partials differ does not necessarily lead to a perception of dissonance when notes with notes with those series are sounded together. – Нет войне Jan 03 '19 at 17:37
  • It does if they differ by frequency, which they might for some notes. –  Jan 03 '19 at 19:13
  • A violinist will usually play more in tune than a pianist (less sharp thirds etc) and this seems to be the effect you;re describing. I struggle with piano quartets for this reason. They always sound our of tune. . – PeterJ Feb 10 '19 at 12:49

2 Answers2

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In acoustic instruments, the fundamental is always stronger than the harmonics so this is an extremely implausible scenario during live performances.

However, subharmonics can occur if the intonation is off, thus resulting in a dissonance that deviates from the intended tone. (

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noumenal
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As has already been said in the comments on the question, any difference between the harmonic series of tones on the piano and on violins has nothing to do with the agreed upon pitch of A.

Scott Wallace
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