Pitch or frequency?

Question

There seems to be confusion (certainly with me!) about the relationship between pitch and frequency. Trying to clear it up finds contrasting ideas. Obviously, when a note has a higher frequency than another, it is a 'higher' ( further to the right on a piano) note. Would it be correct to say the pitch of a note is, say, C, without specifying whether it's C4 or C5, for instance?

I'm not referencing the 'same note played on different instruments', but perhaps it's as simple as we call the frequency 440Hz as pitch 'A' (not always, I know), but there are other frequencies also called 'A' - like 220Hz, and 880Hz.

The other question is related (and my answer accepted), but that's all, I think.

Possible duplicate of Do musical instruments pitched at different frequencies play different notes when compared to each other? — user1803551, Mar 31 '18 at 14:30
@user1803551, I don't think the linked question is asking the same thing as this question. The linked question seems to be based on a misconception of how pitches relate to frequencies. So while it might solicit answers with similar info, I don't think the question itself is the same (this question isn't based on a misconception, for example). I also think this one will be more useful to future readers with this same specific question. — jdjazz, Apr 12 '18 at 20:21
@jdjazz But my answer there answers the question here, and duplicates are considered by answer, and not by question. — user1803551, Apr 15 '18 at 08:40
@user1803551 - surely a question would have a duplicate, rather than any answer to a question? — Tim, Apr 15 '18 at 10:54
You'd think so, but no, see here. Otherwise, I can just copy-paste my answer from there to here. — user1803551, Apr 16 '18 at 02:23

score 8 · Answer 1 · answered Mar 31 '18 at 07:50

Frequency refers to the measurable number of cycles per second (Hz) of a periodic sound wave.

Pitch refers to (subjectively) how low or high that wave sounds to us as a note. The way I see it, pitch is the log-scale way that humans subjectively perceive frequency.

An unfortunate medical condition that highlights the difference between frequency and pitch is Diplacusis - people hearing the same frequency as different pitches in each ear.

Would it be correct to say the pitch of a note is, say, C, without specifying whether it's C4 or C5, for instance?

Out of context, it would be confusing, because C4 and C5 are not the same pitch - one sounds subjectively higher than the other. (It might be OK if it were obvious from context which C you were talking about).

In our musical system, I think it's OK in some contexts to say that C4 and C5 are the same note, as long as we're talking in a context where the idea of octave equivalence is understood.

See also loudness (perception) versus intensity (measurable and scientific). — Todd Wilcox, Mar 31 '18 at 12:55

score 3 · Answer 2 · answered Apr 01 '18 at 23:48

Would it be correct to say the pitch of a note is, say, C, without specifying whether it's C4 or C5, for instance?

It might be helpful to consider the distinction between a pitch and a pitch class. A pitch is a specific location on a keyboard: A4, for instance, is a pitch.

But a pitch class is a collection of all pitches related by octave equivalence. In other words, every single A on the keyboard (and every other A out there) belong to the pitch-class A.

Such a distinction is really helpful when understanding post-tonal music that operates on the notion of octave equivalency. Stravinsky's arrangement of Happy Birthday, for instance, is best understood from a standpoint of pitch classes.

Laurence · Answer 3 · 2018-04-14T17:20:12.897

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To combine it all in one simple answer - No, C4 and C5 are different pitches. They are the same 'pitch class', which might be loosely described in some circumstances as the same 'note'. But they are different pitches.

Frequency is the scientific description of pitch.

edited Apr 14 '18 at 17:20

answered Apr 14 '18 at 17:10

Laurence

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That might be half an answer - what about frequency? – Tim Apr 14 '18 at 17:15

skinny peacock · Answer 4 · 2018-04-14T16:02:58.297

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In my way of understanding, pitch in musical terms refers to the frequencies associated with musical notes, where as frequency might be associated with tones that are in between notes and not musical in nature at all. Pitch seems to be musical and frequency seems to be associated with Physics. Another way to look at it is pitches are things we can hear and frequencies can include pitches but can extend well below or above the capability of the human ear to perceive.

edited Apr 14 '18 at 16:02

answered Apr 14 '18 at 15:56

skinny peacock

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We might refer to a note as being 'off pitch' if its frequency isn't quantised to the currently-established musical framework. But it would still have a 'pitch', albeli a wrong one! – Laurence Apr 14 '18 at 17:25
@Laurence Payne - Off pitch indicates to me that it is indeed off and not on an accepted definition of a pitch. No wonder folks are confused by this, I would say the off pitch tone was out of tune and needed adjustment to become on pitch, but that's just me. And how do you call pitches when they are frequencies above or below the hearing capabilities of the ear, are there pitches associated with broadcast frequencies? – skinny peacock Apr 14 '18 at 17:39
Frequency is a physical property of sound waves (and of other waves), but pitch is a perceptual property (or a psychoacoustic property) of sound waves. See this. Our sense of pitch allows us to rank pitches on a musical scale, but which scale? The western 12-tone scale? The 17-tone or 22-tone scales associated with Persian music? What about other microtonal scales? I think that we have to grant that pitch is continuous, and we use our sense of pitch to organize pitches in whatever scales are convenient or familiar. – Apr 14 '18 at 19:07
@DavidBowling - It is my understanding that a pitch is a designated frequency, where as a frequency is not necessarily a designated pitch. Am I wrong? I think that pitch is designated as opposed to continuous. – skinny peacock Apr 14 '18 at 19:16
How many microtonal scales are there? The 12-tone scale is somewhat arbitrary, so how do we arrive at which pitches are defined? What about different pitch standards (e.g., 440 Hz vs 432 Hz). The way I understand it, we use pitch to organize sounds on a scale, we don't use scales to define what is and what is not a pitch. Frequency is the physical property of sound waves that gives rise to the perceptual phenomenon of pitch. Since frequency is continuous, so is pitch (more or less). – Apr 14 '18 at 19:23
@DavidBowling- I can't argue with much of what you are saying but your question " how do we arrive at which pitches are defined" doesn't really translate to " how do we arrive at which frequencies are defined" does it? It seems pitches are assigned to specific frequencies rather than the other way around. Pitches have to do with what we can hear, frequencies have to do with a much broader spectrum. I think frequencies come before pitches in how things should be explained. – skinny peacock Apr 14 '18 at 19:47
You should look at the article I linked to, because I think we are talking past each other a little bit. From the Wikipedia article: "Pitch is an auditory sensation in which a listener assigns musical tones to relative positions on a musical scale based primarily on their perception of the frequency of vibration. Pitch is closely related to frequency, but the two are not equivalent.... Pitch is each person's subjective perception of a sound wave, which cannot be directly measured." – Apr 14 '18 at 20:13
@ David Bowling - It appears to me that you seem to be supporting my original statement that frequencies are physics, and pitch refers to music,( what we know as musical tones). Pitch seems to be assigned to frequency, in my opinion, where as frequency is not necessarily assigned to pitch, and I don't feel pitch is continuous when applied to what we know as music. – skinny peacock Apr 15 '18 at 15:40
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@skinnypeacock -- I do support your notion that frequency belongs to physics, but pitch belongs to perception. Any (audible) frequency can give rise to a pitch perception. Consider what we commonly call a "high-pitched sound." This does not need to lie in a particular scale to be meaningful. Or consider pitch-bending wheels on keyboards; it is still a pitch when it is bent. – Apr 15 '18 at 15:52
@David Bowling- interesting point, what we perceive as a high pitched sound is actually quite low on a wide band frequency spectrum, and I suspect pitch bending is accomplished by going off pitch, so does that mean it's still on pitch? – skinny peacock Apr 15 '18 at 16:17
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@skinnypeacock -- If you have a reference color, and try to match it but miss by a little bit, you might say that the second color is off. When a pitch doesn't quite match a reference pitch, the pitch is off, but it is still a pitch in the same way that the color that is off is still a color. Off-pitch doesn't mean "not a pitch", but something more like "not the reference pitch." – Apr 15 '18 at 20:40
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@DavidBowling- This discussion is getting a little long winded but I've noticed one point that wasn't made clear before. Frequencies are measurable simply by counting the vibrations, no changes, where as pitches are seemingly not so absolute and may be varied slightly leaving a little wiggle room when applied to musical tones. – skinny peacock Apr 15 '18 at 23:04
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@skinnypeacock -- Yes, it is a bit long-winded, sure to be banished to chat at any moment. Your last comment hits on the point I was trying to make from the start: frequency is an objective, measurable quantity, while pitch is a subjective perceptual phenomenon. Pitch is how we interpret sound wave frequencies. – Apr 15 '18 at 23:14

Pitch or frequency?

4 Answers4