2

See image: Is the orange or the green time correspondence the correct way to play? (Does the hand without grace notes begin to play at the same time as the grace notes, or the main notes, by the other hand?)

enter image description here

GrandAdagio
  • 1,683
  • 8
  • 14
  • Those are not mordents. – phoog Jul 23 '23 at 23:20
  • Is there a specific term other than 'ornament'? – GrandAdagio Jul 24 '23 at 00:36
  • The horizontal alignment in that score is a pretty good clue that the destra main note should sound simultaneously with the sinistra main note, and not with the grace notes. I can't really imagine what other meaning could be intended. – Kilian Foth Jul 24 '23 at 09:52
  • 1
    @Kilian Foth That's what I had thought, but then I saw a video tutorial that played the LH in the first example (m107) immediately when the RH start to play the grace note: 5:31 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PuxGfX7OKs – GrandAdagio Jul 24 '23 at 14:30
  • I don't think this ornament has a specific name, no. Note that Aaron's answer is incorrect: Barenboim does not align the principal notes in the first example; the left-hand note is nearly aligned with the beginning of the ornament in the right hand, but not precisely. – phoog Jul 24 '23 at 15:43
  • 1
    @KilianFoth notes with ornaments that should be played on the beat are also typically aligned this way, so the alignment really doesn't tell you much. The first note of the main theme of the rondo is a good example. – phoog Jul 24 '23 at 15:47
  • I'm more interested in whether there is a general rule/common practice, not just this particular piece/measures. Does it depend on the specific case? – GrandAdagio Jul 24 '23 at 22:11
  • "Does it depend on the specific case?": It depends on the period and the ornament, at least, if not the musical context and the performer's mood. Check out the first edition at https://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No.11_in_A_major,K.331/300i(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus). Mozart is particularly difficult because he wrote during a period of transition between on-the-beat and before-the-beat ornaments. – phoog Jul 24 '23 at 22:20
  • @KilianFoth, GrandAdagio, also note that the metronomic approach to meter that prevails today is a relatively recent phenomenon. Early Music Sources has a very interesting video, Historical Recordings from the Beginning of the 20th Century, exploring how different this was as recently as 100 years ago. In Mozart's day the metronome had not yet been invented; his approach to meter may have been more flexible still. Or less. We can't know for sure. – phoog Jul 25 '23 at 10:20
  • 1
    I play green in the second movement and orange in the third. But I've never played this on a period piano - I might play green in the third on a piano with a weaker bass. – Alexander Woo Jul 26 '23 at 01:25

2 Answers2

2

I have the impression that Mozart appogiaturas are "supposed to be" played on the beat. https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=52829.0, see the discussion about the Henle edition (which is sort of the authority on how things are "supposed to be played").

Aha, I have found a better source than a forum: https://content.alfred.com/catpages/00-24458.pdf

In Mozart's music all appoggiaturas, whether long or short, and that includes those written with a cross-stroke, are played ON THE BEAT. In his Essay, C.P.E Bach endorsed the notating of appoggiaturas with small notes representing their true values.

There's also Grace notes: when are they played on the beat, and when are they played off?.

D.R.
  • 448
  • 4
  • 19
0

In this piece, all of the ornaments are usually played ahead of the beat. That is, the main notes in the right and left hands are played together, preceded by the ornaments.

As one example, Daniel Barenboim's recording is played this way. It's easier to hear if you play the recording at a slower speed.

Aaron
  • 87,951
  • 13
  • 114
  • 294
  • If you listen to Barenboim's performance of the first example, you'll see that he plays the r.h. E just a hair before the l.h. A, nearly at the same time, and the r.h. A and C sharp are distinctly later. – phoog Jul 24 '23 at 15:42
  • @phoog Are you suggesting the answer is wrong, or just that I should post a different recording? – Aaron Jul 24 '23 at 18:16
  • It's wrong by virtue of being too general. All the ornaments are not usually played before the beat, though some are. (Also note that most modern editions change the notation that Mozart used for the main theme of the rondo, obscuring Mozart's notational practice and making it difficult to interpret.) – phoog Jul 24 '23 at 22:11