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I have a 12/8 rhythm that has beats on the x's below:

1 + + 2 + + 3 + + 4 + +
x     x     x   x   x

I vaguely remember hearing a name for this years ago. Is it some kind of clave? Is there a name for it?

JamesFaix
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4 Answers4

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There are several rhythms that use the 3-3-2-2-2 pulse in flamenco music from Spain. One of the most well known is Bulerías, a seemingly simple but very complex sounding rhythm made even more complex by the fact that they count starting on 12 instead of 1 So the basic accents fall on:

12..3..6.8.10.

An often used variation is:

12..3....78.10.

This gives the 3-3-2-2-2 pulse you are asking about.

In other styles that emulate a Spanish flavor, some of the most well known occurrences of this is “America” from “West Side Story” and the main theme from “Man of La Mancha”. I have played the latter show and this rhythm is used in a few songs in the score of that show. In La Mancha they wrote it as alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4 but in America I believe they just wrote it in 6/8 with every other bar having the accents on beats 1, 3 and 5.

Someone with a more detailed knowledge of Flamenco music and dance can likely give you names of other rhythms that use this basic count such as Soleares, Alegrias and Peteneras (kudos @jsantander) but hopefully this will at least point you in the right direction.

John Belzaguy
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Dom Nov 21 '20 at 23:35
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    What does "they count starting on 12" actually mean? Does it mean that "12 - - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 -" is the same rhythm as "1 - - 4 - - 7 - 9 - 11 -" and they simply use different numbers when talking about it? Or does it mean that in the rhythm "12 - - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 -," the second beat is logically the first beat in some sense, and so the rhythm is effectively actually "- - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12"? – Tanner Swett Jun 10 '21 at 16:28
  • @TannerSwett I don’t have the experience with that style to explain it but this video does around the 2 minute mark https://youtu.be/9ophgWK8dMs To me it sounds like 1-4-7-9-11 but they think of it and play it differently. – John Belzaguy Jun 10 '21 at 18:26
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This is an example of hemiola

From the Oxford Companion to Music (2nd ed., Alison Latham, 2002)

Hemiola: In modern notation, a hemiola occurs when two bars in triple meter (e.g., 3/2) are performed as if they were notated as three bars in duple meter (6/4) and vice versa.

The Wikipedia entry linked above goes on to say that when the 3:2 ratio occurs simultaneously -- that is, one part is in three while another is in two -- the term is sesquialtera. However, the term does not appear in the OCM.

Aaron
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    I think this is the term i heard years ago – JamesFaix Nov 20 '20 at 00:45
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    But as what we're discussing is neither a hemiola or two simultaneous rhythms, neither term is appropriate here. – Laurence Nov 20 '20 at 01:54
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    @LaurencePayne If by "We're not discussing hemiola" you mean "this is the dictionary definition of hemiola", then I totally agree with you. – Aaron Nov 20 '20 at 03:10
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    No answer to the original question would be complete unless hemiola was mentioned. – Jos Nov 20 '20 at 08:50
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    @LaurencePayne The section in the linked article explicitly calls out this rhythm pattern in the section on horizontal hemiola: "It is "a cliché of various Spanish and Latin American musics ... well established in Spain since the sixteenth century", a twelve-beat scheme with internal accents, consisting of a 6/8 bar followed by one in 3/4, for a 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 pattern." That's exactly what is described in the question. – shhalahr Nov 20 '20 at 12:52
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    "sesquialtera" is discussed here I see it as a synonym of hemiola. Simultaneous 3 against 2 is often described as a hemiola cross-rhythm or simply a 3 against 2 cross-rhythm. – chasly - supports Monica Nov 20 '20 at 13:22
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    +1 it's obvious the pattern is hemiola. It strange to read the comments that it isn't. However, hemiola isn't a rhythm "name" in the sense of tresillo, clave, habanera, etc. It's more like a category of rhythm. – Michael Curtis Nov 20 '20 at 13:25
  • @chasly-supportsMonica - sesquialtera was organ related. Hemiola is 3 against 2, and also 2 against 3. – Tim Nov 20 '20 at 14:51
  • The rhythm described is not 3 against 2 or vice versa, it is an even pulsed rhythm with two groups of 3 and three groups of 2. There’s no “against”. – John Belzaguy Nov 20 '20 at 17:00
  • @JohnBelzaguy Hemiola only requires that "two bars in triple meter are performed as ... three bars in duple meter." – Aaron Nov 20 '20 at 17:04
  • @Aaron I’m not saying it isn’t a hemiola, just that the implication in other comments in your answer seem like they’re referencing 3 against 2 as if they were say, triplets to eighth notes. Maybe I’m misreading. – John Belzaguy Nov 20 '20 at 19:44
  • @JohnBelzaguy My mis-read. Thanks for clarifying. – Aaron Nov 20 '20 at 20:25
  • @Tim sesquialtera has two completely distinct senses, of which one has to do with pitch, and therefore organ stops, and the other has to do with meter. The common element is a factor of one and a half (think sesquicentennial), or indeed 3/2. – phoog Nov 21 '20 at 01:52
  • @JohnBelzaguy - point taken. There is no 3 against 2, or vice versa, it's simply a rhythmic metrication within a bar. So is, or isn't it a hemiola..? – Tim Nov 21 '20 at 07:33
  • Related to defining "hemiola": Is that a hemiola or what?; How can I explain a hemiola to someone who knows nothing about music?. – Aaron Nov 21 '20 at 09:50
  • @Tim In the wiki article in Aaron’s answer there is a description of a “horizontal hemiola”, which has this exact rhythm although the written rhythm has the 2’s before the 3’s. As for whether it technically is or isn’t, I’ll leave that one to the music scholars! – John Belzaguy Nov 21 '20 at 17:06
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Colloquially it's often described as 'that rhythm from 'America' (West Side Story).

enter image description here

Laurence
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Your rhythm is reminiscent of Arabic rhythms, which of course are an influence on Flamenco music. Check this out: https://www.maqamworld.com/en/iqaa/warshan_arabi.php

R. B.
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    Thanks for your answer, and welcome. Problem for the future with links is they can suffer from linkrot, leaving answers like this pretty empty. – Tim Nov 21 '20 at 17:21