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Often when doing in knife fighting sparring, people tend to ignore that they've got cut. I've seen shock knives on the net, and they seem kind of interesting as they at least give feedback that you've been 'cut'. Does anyone have any experience with them? Do they make for a more realistic knife fighting situation?

THelper
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Keith Nicholas
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  • What knives do you use for sparrings now? –  Feb 02 '12 at 08:51
  • rubber mainly, sometimes wood – Keith Nicholas Feb 02 '12 at 09:14
  • Strange indeed. For me, strike of a wooden tanto is enough painful to avoid that as much as I can. Thus, I don't need anything harder to be careful. –  Feb 02 '12 at 09:22
  • not if it slides across major tendons. It has very little effect, you may not even notice in the middle of it all as well – Keith Nicholas Feb 02 '12 at 09:43
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    actually this video is a good summary... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw4ft1L5a3U – Keith Nicholas Feb 02 '12 at 09:46
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    Strongly depends on technique, I believe. Our cuts look more like chops than like cuts, so even wooden knife strikes painfully. And, well, these shocking knifes give you an illusion of strike while you only touched the partner. –  Feb 02 '12 at 10:05
  • yes, but you can't limit yourself just to chopping techniques to make it painful in training, as a real knife works in more ways than chops. Its not so much they give the illusion, the interesting thing about them is they demand more respect because there is greater consequence to being tagged by one. – Keith Nicholas Feb 02 '12 at 10:10
  • agree on all points –  Feb 02 '12 at 10:31
  • regarding technical limitations: the intent is not in painful trainings, but in fact, that most 'slight' cuts (forgive me my English) do not effectively cut clothed opponents (tested on pig meat under shirts and different coats), so we are for force chops where applicable –  Feb 02 '12 at 10:36
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    for sure.....anything that's not a knife is only going to be a 'simulation' of real knife fighting, no matter how you train, it's not quite the real thing. Which is true of most all martial arts training. – Keith Nicholas Feb 02 '12 at 10:39
  • Even training with a real knife is simply a simulation – without the intent to harm, you're only parroting the movements, and not offering a realistic experience. Shock knives do allow you to cause temporary harm and pain, and thus allow you to give intent. Most martial artists (as demonstrated by @IaroslavKovtunenko's comment) do not know how to cut through material and will result to chopping motions; denim on a pig or on meat wrapped around a pole can teach one to cut properly – an hour of trying in, it can seem quite impressive to step up and do it with ease. It's simply a trick: Sink. – stslavik Feb 08 '12 at 23:45

3 Answers3

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I had the displeasure of training with a set a few years back when they were still restricted to LE and Military. Based on the ones I used, there are two things that you should be aware of:

  1. The knives can be "cranked up" by a little screw at the bottom. When they're cranked up all the way, they do not feel like you've been cut, but more like you put wet hand on an outlet. Anyone whose ever had that displeasure knows what that feels like...
  2. The price tag at that time was about $1000 for a set of two.

The training quality can take one of two paths:

  1. You begin to focus more for fear of being shocked. You will take the training extremely seriously because there's actual feedback of just how likely you are to get cut.
  2. You'll be moving even slower, take any aliveness out of your body, and be too afraid of the tool to use it effectively.

I've seen both, for me it was the former, but I have no desire to repeat the experiment.

A much less expensive solution that Kevin Secours taught was the scratch stick. He describes in a video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaHVDSwk6Vs

I prefer this idea since it gives quality feedback, and is cheap enough to be replaced after each use. Pens are a distant second, since they tend to not feel like anything, and the slightest touch can leave a mark (making it difficult to tell what connected with flesh and what just connected with clothing).

Edit: The discussion in the comments for the original post left me thinking about the extremes to which some people want to go for realistic training. As someone who has trained with edged blades in the past, I can say without any hesitation that any form of training is a simulation; if you put two knives in two training partners hands, they will still lack the key component that takes training to reality: intent.

I've trained with guys who hated me; I have a grating personality that can test the patience of Buddha himself. Even with that, there was never the worry that my training partner was going to say, "You know, $%#^ it, I think I'll just kill him." Without that intent to actually cause harm and desire to kill you, there is still an ancient ocean between your training and reality; anyone attempting to sell you on the idea otherwise is out to make money off of your fear.

Shock Knives are a safer and easily as effective method of training as training with a real knife without the unnecessary danger of being involved in an accidental stabbing. I see no reason as an instructor, a husband, and a human being to endanger my students with a bladed knife in the attempt to show them the fear of being stabbed.

Again, I feel the scratch stick is still superior for the reasons expressed above, as well as one I neglected to mention; a shock knife carries all the same dangers as a violet wand or TENS unit. These should never be used on or brought into contact with a person with a pacemaker or other medical implant.

stslavik
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  • Sorry, but what is a scratch stick? –  Feb 28 '12 at 08:55
  • As above: "A much less expensive solution that Kevin Secours taught was the scratch stick. He describes in a video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaHVDSwk6Vs" – stslavik Feb 28 '12 at 19:18
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The best way to develop awareness of ANYTHING is to do it slowly. Take a training knife (can't be rubber, has to be solid) and slowly put the point on someone's chest and slowly press in. They'll be aware of it, I bet you, way before it touches them. Slowly get to their arm and slowly slice across it. Again, they'll be aware.

Do slow-motion sparring. Half-speed -- or slower. Because knives are inherently dangerous, people have a hard time staying slow. Have someone act as a referee and stop when someone speeds up. No need to say who - just stop, realign, start again. For the slow-motion sparring, you don't need a solid knife.

Anon
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    We used to use pens (normal ballpoint pens, caps in place). Worked rather well. – David H. Clements Feb 02 '12 at 15:26
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    Pens or anything that leaves marks is excellent if you're keeping score. Before you keep score, my thought on this is to develop awareness. Reasoning: what are we keeping track of if people are flailing around, unknowing of what's happening around them? – Anon Feb 02 '12 at 15:29
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    slow training is good to a point, however, you really do need to train at speed because a LOT of technique breaks down under pressure. – Keith Nicholas Feb 02 '12 at 17:52
  • Keith Nicholas, Very good point, with any technique, not neccesarily knives. – Chris Feb 02 '12 at 18:29
  • @KeithNicholas All I said was 'develop awareness'... I never said it was the be-all, end-all of knife training (or any training for that matter). Slow training has the benefit of developing awareness and sensitivity, which fast training (as the OP clearly states) does not, and this leads to problems. I realize that I did not "answer the question", but I feel like I answered the problem. – Anon Feb 02 '12 at 19:47
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I once used an elastic pipe. It's extremely cheap, can be cut to the proper length and you can't accidentally hurt yourself with it, even without protective gear.

http://www.fraenkische.com/portal/mdb_cumulus.php?id=26527

Another good option is a rubber or maybe wooden knife on which you put chalk along the edge. This way you will definitely notice a cut.

Michael
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