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  • Has anyone else every heard this maxim in any form?

I was taught by an experienced combatant that:

"Killing is the lowest level of skill. The ability to incapacitate without killing is a higher level. But the highest level is to subdue the opponent without harming them."

This could even be applied to dueling with weapons, whereby a non-fatal strike can be used to incapacitate, but the highest degree of skill is simply disarming the opponent.

Note also that "come along quietly" is the primary objective of bouncers, for a variety of reasons, which is why they tend to be bigger and stronger than most. Even where the troublemaker is a skilled combatant, it typically only results in additional bouncers joining to mob the attacker, keeping them from being able to do anything, and removing them from the premises.

DukeZhou
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    Master Kan: "Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced." -- "Kung Fu", the original series. – Steve Weigand Dec 02 '20 at 01:54
  • @SteveWeigand Exactly. (It's so well understood it appears in the show Bruce Lee set up:) Gracie "Rules of Engagement" I've seen are also an expression of this, essentially "Submit without escalating", they just avoid the part about how jujitsu can be used to disable or kill. The Kung Fu quote is also consistent with Buddhism, and is the main reason the primary weapon of Shaolin monks is staff. – DukeZhou Dec 02 '20 at 02:11
  • It's a nice thought anyway. But in practice, most martial artists are deluded in this regard. It is possible to do, but only with good training. I'll tell you just about all kung-fu doesn't apply. Nor karate. Nor classical jujitsu. Etc. Those styles don't train like MMA, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, etc. trains. That's needed in order to have a core skill that can put you in a position to do whatever you want to your opponent while not getting hurt yourself. You get to decide, and if it means not hurting him, that's your decision. But most martial artists don't have that privilege. – Steve Weigand Dec 02 '20 at 02:27
  • @SteveWeigand It really depends on the school I think, in terms of training. But the impetus for Judo was to be a gentle art, and it can certainly be applied gently in the real world, as can all forms of grappling. I think the point of jujitsu, aikido and chin-na is that, if the skill differential is sufficient, upon neutralizing an enemy's attack, the superior practitioner can control the opponent's body with wristlocks and other techniques, as opportunity arises. (All of which are also breaks or dislocations re: incapacitate.) But that's how "come along quietly" was explained to me. – DukeZhou Dec 02 '20 at 02:41
  • @SteveWeigand Another observation is that the popularity of arts like "kung fu" and karate has led to quality control issues in terms of teaching, where there can be great variance, and disconnection from the traditional methods. Additionally, not everyone is training for the sport of MMA, but for their sport fighting competitions or exhibitions. But self defense is a separate domain, and there it's like Shioda says, or "Gracie Rules" (i.e. no rules, no gloves, no water breaks, no time limit, with victory only by submission or KO.) – DukeZhou Dec 02 '20 at 02:56
  • @SteveWeigand I've read that Kimura found value in Karate for strengthening the body for Judo & Jujitsu, but I don't know of him challenging Oyama, and Oyama definitely learned Judo, but is known for Karate... – DukeZhou Dec 02 '20 at 03:01
  • @SteveWeigand As an example, the hsing yi response to tai boxing is to straight into the throat with "tiger mouth" full force, and they can just keep doing that for an hour. You can't throw a tai chi master, much less unbalance them. And I have no doubt the same applies to traditional karate (Oyama didn't study judo for no reason.) – DukeZhou Dec 02 '20 at 03:15
  • I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I think you're probably hanging on to traditional martial arts, and you haven't been convinced it's how you train that really matters. I would just point you to some of the answers I've written already on this subject: https://martialarts.stackexchange.com/questions/4806/are-there-any-effective-kung-fu-fighters-in-mma/4807#4807 https://martialarts.stackexchange.com/questions/9753/effectiveness-of-bujinkan-ninjutsu/9755#9755 https://martialarts.stackexchange.com/questions/3029/is-jun-chong-tkd-a-legitimate-tkd-dojo-for-self-defense/3030#3030 – Steve Weigand Dec 02 '20 at 04:04
  • And this one: https://martialarts.stackexchange.com/questions/8890/danzan-ryu-jiu-jitsu-for-self-defense/8894#8894 ... A total of 4 links. – Steve Weigand Dec 02 '20 at 04:05
  • @SteveWeigand I guess I'm just not sure how this discussion of "MMA is the only valid martial art" is relevant as commentary to this question. (tbh it really feels like more of a chat discussion.) – DukeZhou Dec 02 '20 at 04:21
  • Well what I'm getting at is that you can't even begin to consider applying the altruistic ideal of controlling the level of force you use against someone in a fight if you haven't trained in a way that gives you reliable skill at fighting. What gives you that skill and what is the skill that I'm talking about? How do you train for that skill? That's answered in my links above. – Steve Weigand Dec 02 '20 at 04:28
  • @DukeZhou translating "ju" with "gentle is convenient, yet problematic. A proper translation would be "with minimal effort". And the minimal effort can be quite hard and brutal depending on the goal. A broken hip is certainly not gentle, yet the most common outcome of throwing an opponent without breakfall practice on concrete. – Philip Klöcking Dec 02 '20 at 22:16
  • @PhilipKlöcking And yet I've been thrown by Judokas on dirt and grass and they've never hurt me b/c they weren't trying to hurt me. Grappling itself has been promoted in the past to reduce injuries from fighting (for instance with troops, who the commander want to keep in combat readiness.) Another example is Harrison's submissions vs. the way she brutalized her King with elbow strikes. It was gratifying to see ground£ executed at a different level from previous fighters, but bloody and unnecessary. – DukeZhou Dec 03 '20 at 01:26

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Demian Maia, Brazilian jiu-jitsu champion and one of the best exponents of BJJ in MMA, said this after defeating perennial title challenger Chael Sonnen with a lateral drop to triangle choke:

“I want to show jiu-jitsu to the world,” Maia said to Joe Rogan as cornerman Wanderlei Silva implored the crowd to cheer, “and show to the people that you can win the fight without hurting your opponent.”

Emphasis mine.

All the so-called "gentle" arts — BJJ, judo, taiji, aikido, aikijujutsu — attempt to optimize for this approach to winning. Strength and violence are always part of fighting, but some arts emphasize surviving and dominating through subtle technique (almost always grappling) that inflicts minimal harm.

Dave Liepmann
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  • Dave, thank you. I don't think BJJ practitioners always get the deserved praise for this aspect of that art, and how they used this principle to launch modern MMA. (Speaking personally, I much prefer submission victories in MMA to brutality and knockouts, as gratifying as it can be to see any martial technique executed well, including strikes. But it's a kind of conflicted appreciation in the latter case.) – DukeZhou Dec 03 '20 at 01:57
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Let’s look at the four types of violent conflict, and their prime objectives:

  1. Self defence: Keep yourself or someone else alive
  2. Warfare: Make sure your team destroys the other sides will to continue the conflict
  3. Hunting. Kill for sport or to feed.
  4. Domination. Be seen, by as many as possible to achieve physical superiority to the other

Why we kill, if to defend ourselves from bodily harm.........

LazyReader
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  • Thanks for 1. (One of the reasons I like tai chi is the primary goal is maintaining your own health, even in combat, and this is even said to confer some advantage. It typically results in tiring an opponent while waiting for openings that can be exploited definitively, if not exploiting openings created by attacks at the outset.) Maintaining your health, or the health of others, can require disabling or even killing an opponent, but it always best to apply the least amount of force necessary to achieve the goal. – DukeZhou Dec 10 '20 at 00:40