5

From the case of US, I understand that nationals are not the same as citizens. That is, a person who is allowed to stay permenantly in a place may not receive a passport.

Recently Germany passed a new law on citizenship (as far as I understand), but videos news articles and videos often use imagery of a passport.

So, does this mean that in the case of germany that citizenship means one has to get the passport neccesarily? Then, what happend to the niederlassungserlaubnis?

Mark Johnson
  • 5,634
  • 1
  • 14
  • 31
tryst with freedom
  • 1,369
  • 12
  • 28
  • 3
    Citizenship, in most if not all, countries, gives you the same rights as if you were born there and grew up there - it makes you no longer an immigrant (in the eyes of the law). The requirements are usually much higher than for permission to live there permanently, and those are higher than for permission to live there temporarily. I don't know the specific rules in Germany. I doubt that every German citizen is required to get a passport. – user253751 Feb 12 '24 at 22:12
  • All nationals of the US are citizens. You mean residents. You can have permanent residency rights but not be a citizen or national. – Trish Feb 12 '24 at 22:44
  • 3
    @Trish no, not all nationals of the US are citizens. But all nationals of the US are entitled to a US passport (unless they've lost that entitlement subject to due process of law). The non-citizen nationals get a passport with an annotation pointing out their non-citizen status. – phoog Feb 12 '24 at 22:51
  • @phoog, correct, the distinction applies to Indians living as a tribe and to US South Pacific islands people: they are not citizens. – Kphysics Feb 13 '24 at 07:40
  • 2
    @Kphysics I don't know what your source is, but it is not correct. "Indians living as a tribe" have been US citizens for the last century. The only non-citizen nationals at present are American Samoans and Swains Islanders. – phoog Feb 13 '24 at 09:07
  • 1
    @Trish That’s a thing in some countries - you might live in Puerto Rico or Guam and be a US national but not a US citizen (I may be wrong about these two particular places, but it’s true for some places). As far as I know that doesn’t happen in Germany. There are no old colonies. There is a Danish minority somewhere, but they are either German citizens or not. There are no “German nationals” who are not citizens. – gnasher729 Feb 13 '24 at 12:44
  • 2
    @phoog: Hm... that seems to be a US peculiarity. The Oxford Advanced American Dictionary defines "national (noun)" as "a citizen of a particular country". At least, the concept of "Non Citizen Nationality" does not exist in Germany. – sleske Feb 13 '24 at 12:46
  • I’m not 100% sure, but the UK might have the same. Hongkong citizens seem to have some strange status. And maybe the Falkland Islands or some other tiny little island in the pacific. Netherlands and Bonaire might be similar. – gnasher729 Feb 13 '24 at 12:55
  • 2
    @gnasher729 you are, as you suspected, wrong about the particular places, which today are only American Samoa and Swains Island, but as you note this doesn't change the general principle. UK nationality law is remarkably complex; there wasn't even such a thing as citizenship before 1948; people were "subjects" (yet another form of nationality). There have probably been a dozen different kinds of British nationality since the 20th century, not all of which enjoy a right of abode in the UK. – phoog Feb 13 '24 at 14:27
  • 1
    @sleske the US is not the only country to make a distinction between citizenship and nationality; Mexico is another (my understanding, likely imperfect, is that "citizen" is reserved for those who can vote, so only those who are over 18). The dictionary definition is insufficiently precise. Not all countries have a concept of "citizenship" in their nationality law. – phoog Feb 13 '24 at 14:29

4 Answers4

12

From the case of US, I understand that nationals are not the same as citizens.

Correct. Under US nationality law, all US citizens are US nationals, but there are some US nationals who are not US citizens.

That is, a person who is allowed to stay permenantly in a place may not receive a passport.

That's also correct, but it doesn't apply to US non-citizen nationals, who are in fact eligible to receive US passports. People who have the right to reside in the US permanently but are not eligible to receive a US passport are for the most part called "lawful permanent residents" or green card holders. (There are some other categories of people who are neither US nationals nor lawful permanent residents, such as the nationals of the freely associated states.)

Recently Germany passed a new law on citizenship (as far as I understand), but videos news articles and videos often use imagery of a passport.

So, does this mean that in the case of germany that citizenship means on has to get the passport neccesarily? Then, what happend to the niederlassungserlaubnis?

If you are a German citizen you cannot get a Niederlassungserlaubnis, just as a US citizen cannot get a green card (nor can a non-citizen national). Someone who naturalizes in Germany becomes eligible for a German passport, but is not required to obtain one. (German citizens are however required to have a valid ID of some sort, so there's a requirement to have either a passport or an ID card -- Personalausweis in German.)

You may be confused because people often use "get [some country's] passport" to mean "obtain the nationality of [that country]." This is a figure of speech that doesn't necessarily reflect administrative details very closely.

The US and German systems are somewhat different as far as the administrative and legal requirements to obtain a green card or Niederlassungserlaubnis, but thet have this in common:

  • the green card and Niederlassungserlaubnis are both documents evincing a right of permanent residence.
  • after some time living with that status in the issuing country, and subject to some other conditions, the bearer can apply for naturalization (Einbürgerung in German).
  • upon naturalization, the person becomes a citizen of the country and must return the green card or Niederlassungserlaubnis to the government, and becomes eligible to apply for and receive a passport issued by that country.
phoog
  • 37,212
  • 5
  • 79
  • 127
  • In the UK, foreign diplomats and foreigners working for the NATO have a different status. They are outside immigration control and cannot get settled status, and don’t need it. If one of these retired maybe in 45 years time and decided to stay in the UK where they lived most of their life, they would then be allowed for three months to apply for settled status and would get it. Assuming there is still anyone around in 45 years time who knows how to give someone settled status. – gnasher729 Feb 13 '24 at 13:01
  • @gnasher729 what about an EU diplomat who lived in the UK for, say, 6 years before the end of the transition period and then left the diplomatic service of their EU country. Would they be unable to stay in the UK and get a job in the local shop? – phoog Feb 13 '24 at 14:37
  • @JackAidley thanks. I was thinking about that. Your comment has tipped the scales in favor of adding it. – phoog Feb 13 '24 at 14:37
  • Nitpick: Germany's requirement to hold an ID document means each citizen has to maintain either an ID card ("Personalausweis") or a passport ("Reisepass") or both. Having just a passport and no dedicated ID card is perfectly fine. – Dreamer Feb 13 '24 at 15:33
  • So, niederlassungserlaubnis is not citizenship? – tryst with freedom Feb 13 '24 at 15:58
  • 1
    @trystwithfreedom No, Niederlassungserlaubnis is Permanent Residence. – Dr. Snoopy Feb 13 '24 at 21:06
  • @Dreamer thanks, I suspected as much but couldn't be bothered to check. I'll edit. – phoog Feb 13 '24 at 22:10
  • 1
    @phooh You can’t get “settled status” if you are a diplomat. As soon as you stop being a diplomat, you have three months time to apply. If you started living in the Uk before the deadline then you should have no problems. – gnasher729 Feb 14 '24 at 08:34
7

From the case of US, I understand that nationals are not the same as citizens.

That's really US-specific terminology. There are other similar distinctions like the various types of British nationality, each somewhat different from each other.

That is, a person who is allowed to stay permanently in a place may not receive a passport.

As noted in a comment, US nationals can actually get a US passport. As far as I can tell, the main difference is their right to vote in federal elections. None of this readily generalizes to other countries and it's not useful to understand Germany nationality law so I won't elaborate further.

On the other hand, in the US as in Germany, there are people who have the right to reside more-or-less permanently without being citizens. That's not what the nationals/citizens distinction in the US is about and permanent residents do not get US passports. If they need a passport (in Germany it is mandatory, in the US it's not), they would get it from their country of origin. There are also various statuses and passport-like documents for people who cannot do that (refugees, stateless people).

Recently Germany passed a new law on citizenship (as far as I understand), but videos news articles and videos often use imagery of a passport.

That's because becoming a citizen allows you to receive a passport. In Germany, a personal ID card (Personalausweis) is even more common but I guess passport pictures are just easier and, as pointed out in a comment, more distinctive.

So, does this mean that in the case of Germany that citizenship means on has to get the passport necessarily?

Not exactly but German residents do have to hold a government ID (either a passport or a Personalausweis). If you become a German citizen, you often have to relinquish your previous citizenship and will need either of those.

Then, what happend to the Niederlassungserlaubnis?

Nothing, that's completely unrelated. As noted, that's not what the nationals/citizens distinction in the US is about and that's not what the new German law is about. None of this means the permanent resident status has disappeared. This status still exists.

Relaxed
  • 764
  • 3
  • 6
  • 2
    "I guess passport pictures are just easier": more distinctive, too: a picture of a Personalausweis isn't as readily recognizable or distinguishable from one of a driver's license or a personal ID card from another country. The card is fairly dense with information. The scant information on the cover of a passport, on the other hand, includes a readily recognizable icon of the German state and just a few additional words. – phoog Feb 12 '24 at 23:28
  • 1
    @phoog True and you can even take a pictures of the cover without worrying about personal info… I edited the answer. – Relaxed Feb 12 '24 at 23:31
  • 2
    The distinction of German-ness vs. German citizenship is relevant when it comes to the aftermath of the second World War and the Cold War. Citizens of the GDR and Spätaussiedler were not required to go through a naturalization process to have their citizenship of the Federal Republic recognized. – o.m. Feb 13 '24 at 05:45
  • 3
    Since 1934, there is no distinction between German citizenship and nationality. Before 1934 you were a german national if you were a citizen of one of the german states (Länder). – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 06:13
  • 4
    If you become a German citizen, you often have to relinquish your previous citizenship. - Under the new German citizenship law that will no longer be the case. The change has been passed by the Bundestag and will come into effect 3 months after being signed by the Bundespräsident (so sometime in summer) – xyldke Feb 13 '24 at 07:43
6

The answers by Relaxed and phoog cover the meaning of Niederlassungserlaubnis, which was the main part of the question. However, there are subtle distinctions between holding a German passport, being a German citizen, and being a German.

  • German citizenship is a legal category. One may be a German citizen by descent without ever coming to Germany or talking to the German authorities.
  • The passport or national identity card is the physical token of an administrative procedure where the German authorities acknowledge the citizenship of the applicant. This administrative procedure creates a legal presumption of citizenship, but it is not proof. (Mark Johnson wrote about taken as proof,, I presume he means this presumption.)
  • Holding a passport or ID card for 12 years in good faith without legally being a German confers citizenship (§3 StAG).
  • In cases of doubt, the authorities may be asked to investigate and issue a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis (§30 StAG) to confirm the citizenship, or a certificate confirming the absence of citizenship.
  • In the aftermath of WWII, there was the legal category of Statusdeutsche who were ethnic Germans with the right to German citizenship as soon as they entered the Federal Republic of Germany with the intent to become a German citizen.
o.m.
  • 17,538
  • 3
  • 37
  • 64
  • No, you are confusing terminology, a German passport is proof of German Citizenship, only German citizens can obtain German passports, you might get confused with other types of passports that Germany might issue, like Refugee passports (these are not what people commonly call German passports), same for ID cards (Personalausweis), only issued to German citizens. Your last category is about German ethnicity, not citizenship. – Dr. Snoopy Feb 13 '24 at 08:40
  • The third point, the law says this (using Google Translate): "Citizenship is also acquired by anyone who has been treated as a German citizen by German authorities for twelve years and is not responsible for this." I believe this is a legacy clause for transition periods after World War 2. – Dr. Snoopy Feb 13 '24 at 08:42
  • This answer is correct in all points. A Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis (or a naturalization certificate) can be required for certain public positions (an ID or Passport is not suffient). The last point should include and seeks permanent residence in the federal territory by immigrating. – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 11:41
  • 1
    @Dr.Snoopy Since §3(2) was added in 2007, it is doubtful that the 12 year rule is a 'legacy clause for transition periods after World War 2'. Fassung § 3 StAG a.F. bis 28.08.2007 (geändert durch Artikel 5 G. v. 19.08.2007 BGBl. I S. 1970). Switzerland also has a similar rule. – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 11:45
  • My point is that a German passport is proof of German citizenship, that does not mean stronger certificates might be needed in some (very specific) cases. – Dr. Snoopy Feb 13 '24 at 12:36
  • 1
    @Dr.Snoopy, the problem might be in the use of the word "proof." A legal presumption can be rebutted, a legal proof cannot. – o.m. Feb 13 '24 at 16:44
  • @MarkJohnson, I edited the last point, but not with the words you suggest. "Seek permanent residence" is too easily confused with "seeks permanent resident status" which these people did not seek. – o.m. Feb 13 '24 at 16:46
  • @Dr.Snoopy An my point is that this answer is correct (passport/ID is a presumption of citizenship) and that your claim that the author is confusing the terminology is wrong. Since the Freizügigkeitsgesetzes of 1867-11-01, a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis is required when there is doubt about a persons citizenship. – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 16:56
  • Yes, that is fine. Important is that it was not automatic. That would have caused problems with visitors. – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 16:59
  • 1
    The passport / citizenship distinction probably applies anywhere, it's definitely not specific to Germany nor does it seem very relevant to the question. – Relaxed Feb 13 '24 at 19:43
  • @Dr.Snoopy The good faith rule prevents situations like this https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/ that many people would find unjust. – xngtng Feb 13 '24 at 20:45
  • 1
    @MarkJohnson Can you show examples of a person that is not a German citizen and holds a German passport? Also note that a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweises is required to apply for a German passport for the first time... – Dr. Snoopy Feb 13 '24 at 21:13
  • @Dr.Snoopy Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis is not required to apply for a German passport for the first time. It is only required if there a doubts (based on the available information) that you are German citizen. If the officials registry office have no doubts, then the presumption exists that you are a German citizen, since only officials of the citizenship office (Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörde) can make such a legaly binding determination by issuing a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis. – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 21:50
  • 1
    @xngtng A Swiss case (where the period is 5 years) I read about: the naturalization ceremony for the parent and children was delayed by 10 days for some reason. Many years later it was determind that one child had turned 18 during the 10 days and therefore no longer qualified. Since it was not the fault of the child and had been treated as a swiss citizen during the whole period, the citizenship was recognised as being valid. – Mark Johnson Feb 13 '24 at 22:15
  • Dr snoopy, it may be an urban legend, but when Iran occupied the US embassy, about 20 us embassy employees were in the Canadian embassy at the time. And since they couldn’t leave the country with us passports, the Canadian embassy just gave them Canadian passports. Don’t know if it’s true. – gnasher729 Feb 14 '24 at 08:41
  • @gnasher729 It is. See: Canadian Caper - Wikipedia To do so, an Order in Council was made to issue official multiple copies of Canadian passports, with various fake identities, to the American diplomats in Canadian sanctuary. – Mark Johnson Feb 14 '24 at 08:53
  • @MarkJohnson The irony is that in order to obtain a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis an orderly received Personalausweis or Reisepass is sufficient proof... From what I can find it's more or a legacy document from the aftermath of the world wars and the cold war where you could have been a German citizen then found yourself in a different country, the authorities in Germany lost track of your existence and so you need to produce any kind of legal documents that indicate a citizenship in order to avoid having to go through the regular immigration process which takes much longer. –  Feb 14 '24 at 10:22
  • @user54420 Well, I would suggest that you look further, both for the past (starting 1867) to the present (if you want work in certain positions). The average person will never require one if the records are compleate. – Mark Johnson Feb 14 '24 at 11:24
3

As a citizen, you have the right to reside, therefore the permission (Erlaubnis) to reside is no longer required.

A national ID or Passport is taken as proof of this right.

Since a residence permit will be revoked through a change or loss of citizenship (Allgemeine Verwaltungsvorschrift zum Aufenthaltsgesetz 52.1.2), the Niederlassungserlaubnis will no longer be valid.

Mark Johnson
  • 5,634
  • 1
  • 14
  • 31