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In another question, a reference was given to Varro:

De subus nemini ignotum, nisi qui apros non putat sues vocari.

which was translated as:

As to swine, everybody knows — except those who think that wild boars ought not to be called swine.

At first, it simply struck me as an odd translation. Reading the Latin I got the impression that Varro is referring to a specific person even mocking him a little. Influenced by a recent reading about est/sunt qui constructions, in which the verb inside the clause is usually in the subjunctive case, thus producing a relative clause of characteristic (some examples in A&G 535.1); however the construction sunt/est qui can also come with the indicative. A good take on that can be found in a note on Horace Odes 1:3 (sunt quos curriculo pulverem Olympicum ...):

Sunt quos] The Greeks say ἔστιν οὕς. The indicative is used with ‘sunt,’ or ‘est qui,’ when particular persons are alluded to, as here the Greeks in opposition to the Romans. So Epp. ii. 2. 182: “Argentum — sunt qui non habeant, est qui non curat habere,” where, by the latter, is distinctly indicated the wise man. Here Horace alludes to the Greeks of former days, and is led to refer to them, because this was the chief subject of Pindar’s poetry.

I expected a specific person Varro is referring to because he used the indicative inside the clause. However, this is clearly wrong since it seems that usually nemo aliquid facit nisi qui comes with the indicative (while the simple nemo est qui usually comes with the subjunctive).

That leads me to questions:

  1. What is the difference between the subjunctive and indicative inside the nemo alquid facit nisi qui clause. Is it the case it must agree with the mood of the verb of nemo?

  2. Is it possible to use this construction to refer to specific/particular persons that are exception to the nemo?

d_e
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2 Answers2

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About your question 2, yes, in nemo... nisi constructions, nisi indicates a restriction to the exception. The reference of the qui... clause (see below) can receive either a generic or a specific interpretation.

Now for question 1.

est/sunt qui + subj. is a special construction which means :

"there exist(s) someone/some people such that...": the subjunctive mood here conveys the notion of consequence.

In qui apros non putat sues vocari and nemo... nisi qui... the relative pronoun introduces what is called a free or substantive relative, which is a stand-alone referential relative clause.

If no circumstantial nuance is involved, those clauses must be in the indicative.

If the main verb is itself in the subjunctive, then the verb of the free relative must also be in the subjunctive, because you got a modal context; so yes, it "agrees" :

Si non veniam, nemo sciat quare, nisi qui me bene cognoverint.
"If I did not come, no one would know why, except those who knew me well."

Note that substantive relative clauses are not to be confused with interrogative clauses, which must generally be in the subjunctive.

See the following contrast :

Non audivit qui ad convivium veniebant.
"He did not hear those who were coming to the feast."

Non audivit qui ad convivium venirent.
"He did not hear of which people were coming to the feast."

Vincent Krebs
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  • (1/2) Thanks for your answer. I'm afraid my question was not clear enough I also afraid I don't quite understand several terms in the answer such "consecutive/circumstantial nuances". I think the best way to succinctly to express what is meant is by considering what question does the clause answer: what type/kind or who/which/what. that is why in the last example "Non audivit qui ad convivium venirent" I was not thinking of interrogative clause at all, but something like "he did not hear those who were coming (because they were coming, otherwise he would heard them)". – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 11:55
  • (2/2) . I basically said in OP that this nisi qui clause answers what type of nemo hence I naturally expected the subjunctive. in this sense it is not "substantive relative" ( If I got this term right) . It was pointed out that using the indicative for general type takes away the indicative to express specific entities who actually qualify the condition. just as "sunt qui + indicative". – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 12:04
  • I'm sorry, I felt your question was very clear. But I do not understand your comment. And about interrogatives, I only mentioned them so that there be no confusion, I didn't say you mentioned them in the OP. The subjunctive in relatives always expresses consequence or opposition, anything that is not strictly a description of the reality but brings some virtuality or subjectivity. And again, free relatives may express either generic or specific reference, the subjunctive has nothing to do with this opposition that you mention, which to the best of my knowledge is not syntactically encoded. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 14:51
  • @Vincet, I think I see what you are saying, After re-reading the answer it makes more sense. If I got this right I didn't understand the function of qui which I now understand to be substantive and re-state the nemo. i.e., qui=nemo. Theoretically, I assume this qui can be removed altogether and indeed there are some examples for this. – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 15:20
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    If I understand you correctly, you thought that qui had nemo as its antecedent. Actually, qui apros non putat sues vocari is actually a substantive which is in the dative case, only, clauses cannot receive flexion so it's invisible. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 16:30
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    In est/ sunt qui..., the subjunctive mood is mandatory -- what about the example in the post est qui non curat habere? – TKR Jan 11 '23 at 18:26
  • @TKR Sorry, I was referring to the special meaning "there is someone such that...", est qui non curat... means there is one (specific) individual who (actually) cares... – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 18:30
  • @Vincent Krebs: Here are a couple of examples: (i) North & Hillard p. 152 (N&H gave the English only): "He sent the most faithful slave whom he had" = "misit servum quem fidissimum haberet."; or, ".....habebat."? Which is it? In A&G, a similar example; section 278, 2[b[: "He sent the slave whom he had with him." = "servum misit quem secum habebat." Another nightmare: subordinate ("qui") clauses in indirect speech: taking the subjunctive; but, there are exceptions: the statement is true; it's an explanation of something; it's deemed worthy of emphasis--all require the indicative. – tony Jan 12 '23 at 12:42
  • @Vincent Krebs: Colouring the landscape: if the subordinate clause is part of the indirect speech, on the authority of the writer--subjunctive; if the authority lies with a third-party interventionist--indicative. After much study & much confusion I think that the student may select subjunctive or indicative, as he pleases, as long as he can justify it with a logical, coherent argument. – tony Jan 12 '23 at 12:47
  • About He sent the most faithful slave whom he had., this is not really a problem for me as a French speaker as we also put the subjunctive preferentially; the indicative is odd. About indirect speech, yes, if this is an absolute, objective truth, the indicative is sometimes used. I would compare this issue with tense concordance: "He told me his brother was sick, but I don't know if it's true."; "My teacher told to me that grammar is easy." This is why I was giving as a principle in another comment, that the subjunctive is required when subjectivity is involved. – Vincent Krebs Jan 12 '23 at 14:21
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    @VincentKrebs How similar is French and Latin usage with regard to mood in relative clauses with a superlative? Intuitively haberet in the Latin sentence sounds right to me too, but I can't cite grammatical chapter and verse for the intuition and there are also examples with indicative, e.g. Caesar BG 5.49 quam aequissimo loco potest castra communit. – TKR Jan 13 '23 at 02:53
  • @tkr In French you could also say "construit son camp sur un sol (aussi/le plus) égal qu'il le peut", although "que possible" would be much better. The indicative indists on the actuality of the event, making the reader live it in real time. – Vincent Krebs Jan 13 '23 at 06:32
  • @TKR: I think it was yourself who gave me the "haberet" translation when I was frustrated that N&H hadn't provided it. The A&G ex. gives "habebat" in a similar sentence. Both can be justified, therefore both can be correct (context, rules, instinct) I think/ I hope. In preferring, "haberet", I am gratified at your consistency. – tony Jan 13 '23 at 13:15
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    @tony Yes, same after "the only" or "the last". Solum/ultimum librum mihi dedit quem haberet/habebat. – Vincent Krebs Jan 13 '23 at 13:26
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THIS ANSWER IS WRONG, but might be useful as it contains some important discussions in the comments thus is still open

Thanks to @Vincent Krebs answer and investigating many example, I would like to lay the answer thus:

My primary issue was misjudging the qui in "nemo ... nisi qui". this qui is not a regular relative like vicinus, qui ad me heri venit, magnus est. rather it points back, so I suspect, to the nemo to be the subject of the new condition clause started by nisi. In other words this qui does not describe or define nemo. it is nemo itself.

Indeed there are several examples that this qui is removed:

Contumelia a contemptu dicta est, quia nemo nisi quem contempsit tali iniuria notat; (The word “contumely” is derived from the word “contempt,” for no one outrages another by so grave a wrong unless he has contempt for him; Leob)

or from Cicero

facere nemo poterit nisi eruditus

In one example we can see that qui is like is or ea (i.e., pointing back to a predefined subject):

Quod facienda quoque nemo rite obibit nisi is, cui ratio erit tradita (Because no man can duly perform right actions except one who has been entrusted with reason; Leob)

Moreover, it is important to note the restrictions to the nemo is by condition not by description nor exception, this is why translation like "everybody knows — except those who", while might sometimes work seamlessly as in our example, is somewhat misleading if one to trace back the Latin. Indeed, in some cases this formula simply does not work so well. Consider this example from Seneca:

nemo uxorem duxit, nisi qui abduxit.

It can't really be translated as "no one marries a wife except those who take here (from another). No two groups are implied in the Latin. It would be more accurately translated as "no one marries unless he takes .."

So back to the questions:

  1. Is it possible to use this construction to refer to specific/particular persons that are exception to the nemo?

It seems impossible. nemo is already particular/definite grammatically. the subject inside the clause from what I've see must be (and it makes sense given the discussion above) - just as nemo - singular. We cannot refer to specific persons in this construction. A possible way to go would be use praeter instead of nisi like:

si aperte, cur non omnes ferrum habuimus? cur nemo praeter eos qui tuum speculatorem pulsaverunt? ( If it was openly, why did we not all have weapons? Why did no one have them except those who manhandled your spy?; Leob).

  1. What is the difference between the subjective and indicative inside the "nemo alquid facit nisi qui" clause. Is it the case it must agree with the mood of the verb of nemo.

I guess this follows the regular conditionals rules. effectively, in the classical examples I saw there is agreement in the verb mood between the nemo's inside and outside the clause.

d_e
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  • You got it wrong, qui does not "point to nemo". And it is not "removed"... Just, you can have whatever referential group you want after nisi: any other kind of pronoun, a noun... : neminem vidi nisi dominum "I saw nobody except the master". Also, in your first example, qui is here in the shape of the accusative quem... – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 16:36
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    @VincentKrebs, I'll delete the answer to consider more. But not sure: "nisi eruditus" is not like "nisi qui eruditus est"? – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 16:38
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    @VincentKrebs, what is the different between "nisi eruditus" and "nisi qui eruditus est"? – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 16:40
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    Qui eruditus est would refer to someone precise who is actually eruditus. eruditus alone is just a substantivization of the past participle (or just, est remains implicit, nisi eruditus est, "unless he is eruditus") just more concise. Qui eruditus sit would refer to anyone such that they were eruditus. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 16:43
  • Nisi either can be constructed with a noun phrase, the verb being implicitly the same as in the matrix, or it can act as an actual complementizer, introducing its own different explicit verb. Note that technically, si is really the adverbial relative pronoun corresponding to the deictic ita: it represents the truth value of a full predication; then conditional clauses in si can be regarded as adverbial substantive clauses. The conditional si and the interrogative one are one and the same word. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 16:50
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    @VincentKrebs, I have no problem with neminem vidi nisi [vidi] dominum. the issue is with the qui. I don't understand. can we have nisi putat apros... without the qui? – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 16:58
  • No, putat needs a subject. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 16:58
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    @VincentKrebs, okay. that's what I thought. Now, where is the subject here: nisi quem contempsit tali iniuria notat? it is not quem. – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 17:01
  • This is nemo, minus the negation I guess: non ullus... nisi is... "not anyone does this, unless he..." – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 17:06
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    @VincentKrebs, ahhh I think I got this now, thanks for your time. really helpful. I delete this answer now. so probably no comments can be added. – d_e Jan 11 '23 at 17:07
  • Difficult issue, and interesting. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 17:08
  • Thank you for restoring your post, very useful for other people. – Vincent Krebs Jan 11 '23 at 18:16