4

In latin words such as digitus, I found it hard to pronounce correctly the consonants /k/ or /g/ followed by /i/. I think that this happens especially if these sounds are in the same syllabe.

Is it hard because I am not used to it, as a Romance language speaker, who has ever pronounced these "sounds" followed by that vowel, as either palatal plosives, either postalveolar affricates, or do people find it generally not that easy to do it?

I think I have an idea why this happens though. Its because the /i/ is a front vowel while a velar consonant is articulated in the back.

SarruKen
  • 41
  • 2
  • 3
    Out of curiosity, which Romance language in particular? – Draconis Oct 21 '21 at 00:12
  • 1
    My native language is Rumanian. – SarruKen Oct 21 '21 at 00:18
  • 3
    /ki/ and /g/ followed by /i/ are palatalised in many languages, and in many languages they are not palatalised. What shall I say? Languages are different. – fdb Oct 23 '21 at 11:08
  • 4
    It's just a question of what you're used to. If (like me) you natively spoke a language which doesn't palatalize velars before front vowels, you'd never think to palatalize these Latin sounds. – TKR Oct 23 '21 at 19:11
  • 3
    I'd like to understand what exact pronunciation you're aiming at and what comes out - could you give examples from your native Rumanian, if not directly link to recordings at www.forvo.com? In particular, do you pronounce digitus with the Rumanian gi or ghi? Direct links would be especially useful if either your target or your result don't actually exist in Rumanian. – Unbrutal_Russian Oct 25 '21 at 05:20
  • Firstly, I have to admit that my knowledge in phonetics and linguistics is very limited, yet I am very passionate about this domain. I am trying to pronounce any latin word where /k/ or /g/ and /i/ are in the same syllabe, with the aim of doing it without assimilating one sound to the other. After numerous attempts, I feel like I no longer palatalize the /k/, but neither pronounce it like the velar /k/ I am used to. I am not sure how and if I should provide the recording of my attempt, but the group of sounds is definitely closer to the Rumanian "chi/ghi". – SarruKen Oct 27 '21 at 22:01
  • This question would be more on-topic on Linguistics SE. If what you're asking is "why do I as a Romanian speaker have difficulty pronouncing a velar before a front vowel without palatalizing", that's not Latin-specific but is a general question about phonetics/phonology. – TKR Oct 30 '21 at 22:45
  • You can use audio recording sites like vocaroo.com or upload the audio to Google Drive or Dropbox. Alternatively links to forvo.com can serve for illustration. Meanwhile I've tried my best to elaborate on my previous answer - hopefully I understood the nature of your question correctly and managed to give a thorough explanation. – Unbrutal_Russian Nov 04 '21 at 14:22

1 Answers1

2

Your intution is correct and insightful, OP, despite what you say about your limited knowledge of phonetics. Assimilation within /ki/ and /gi/ is physiologically unavoidable because the vowels are front/palatal, while the consonants are back/velar, and both these regions need to be touched by the same part of the tongue (the back or dorsum). Thus if the consonant is to remain strictly velar, the vowel must retreat to the velar region, and if the vowel is to remain front, the consonant must advance towards the palate. One can split hairs about degrees of palatalisation or substitute palatalisation (kʲ) with fronting (k̟) on phonological grounds, but the two terms are equivalent in this context because only one point of contact is involved. Examples below disregard differences in voicing, with k representing any velar stop:

[i] [ɨ~ɯ]2 [ä~a]
[k̟~kʲ]1 Rum, Ru, It, En Conflict Rum, Fr, Sv, Gk
[k] Conflict Rum, Ru, Udm, Tur Rum, Ru, It, En (Australian)

1. Some transcriptions use [c] (palatal stop) to transcribe these e.g. in Greek and Turkish, arguably incorrectly - a true palatal stop (as in Czech and Hungarian) involves tongue-blade (coronal) as well as tongue-back (dorsal) contact and a Russian speaker will hear it as a realisation of their own palatalised coronal stop /tʲ/.
2. The prevalent opinion holds that the Russian [kɨ – kʲi] contrast is a feature of the consonant (velarisation) and not the vowel, but all Russians can and regularly do produce [ɨ] not preceeded by a consonant. The Turkish vowel is variously described.

To test the reader's perception, in this Turkish example the two true velars are followed by two strongly palatalised velars. In this Russian example both are true velars; here a palatalised followed by a true one, same as here in Icelandic and the reverse of this German one.

If your language doesn't have contrastive palatalisation, you might not hear this automatic (allophonic) assimilation and so won't notice anything wrong with the usual description "the Latin C in CI is pronounced the same as in CA". But having the right combination of native phonology, knowledge of phonetics and plain old insighfulness leads one to realise that if taken at face value, either the Latin CA sounded like this and this, or the Latin CI like this, which is of course incorrect. It seems that some people who didn't satisfy the above criteria were taken by surprise by this revelation, and instead of adjusting their worldview to the new information decided to kill the messanger by downvoting this reply. This is a shame, since humans don't have absolute hearing, and anyone interested in phonetics should expect to be constantly surprised.

Apart from considerations of physiological necessity, another piece of evidence in favour of velars being palatalised in Latin before all front vowels is the fact that /el/ passed into /ol/ if the /l/ was velarised ('dark'), including after /kʷ/ - but this didn't happen after /k, g/: *elōr > olor, *kʷelō > colō but gelū̆, celsus. The palatalisation/frontness of the consonant prevented the vowel from becoming back. And of course the palatalised velars can be detected since they became Romance affricates everywhere but Sardinian (in the extinct Dalmatian only before /i/).

Latin did in fact have a velar stop followed by a front vowel: the good old QVI /kʷi/ (and NGVI /ngʷi/) where the stop is not simply velar, but labiovelar, which acts exactly like plain velarisation of the vowel but seems to be more of a consonantal feature. When the palatalisation of /ki/ progressed into affrication, these stops first lost their labialisation (hence It. che, Sp. que [k̟e] ) and in some areas further merged into the affricate, for example in your own native Rumanian as well as in southern Italy: ce [t͡ʃe].

In the comments you say that you're actively attempting not to palatalise the velars before front vowels, to make them intermediate, e.g. as in English with its strong resistance to co-articulation. In my opinion the degree of palatalisation before /i/ can only be decreased by making the vowel less palatal. This can be heard in many English accents where the bee vowel is actually a diphthong /ɪj/, the first element being lowered and centralised like the vowel of big - elsewhere neutralised to [ə] or even raised again to [ɨ]. Something similar might or might not have been true of Latin, which merged /ī/ with /ei/ around 150 BC, and started merging /e/ and /i/ before a vowel a couple of centuries later, so conceivably /ī/ was /ii/ was [ɪi̯]; but ultimately the difference clearly was allophonic, and this is one case where dismissing the whole issue because "we don't have actual recordings" is justified.

Together with the evidence in favour of Latin velars being palatalised before all front vowels, I don't think you should worry about this at all - the Rumanian chi (as well as che) would have sounded perfect to a Roman.

Unbrutal_Russian
  • 5,995
  • 16
  • 27
  • 3
    Lots of languages don't palatalize velars before front vowels to any significant degree. Sure, some degree of coarticulation may be inevitable, but that's a far cry from pronouncing palatal plosives or affricates as the question describes, which is clearly an L1 interference phenomenon. – TKR Oct 24 '21 at 21:55
  • @TKR I don't think the OP is talking affrication - Rum. has a distinction between ci and chi which = those of Italian. Just as in It. chi, Tur. ki, Ru. ки the velar is palatalised, which is just opposite to Tu. kı, Ru. кы where it's velar. The OP hears this palatalisation because in Rum. palatalisation is contrastive, though not for velar stops; almost the same is true of Russian, where кы, the equivalent of kı, exists only in loans, which is why I hear it. You don't hear this because in your native tongue it's non-contrastive and conditioned by human physiology. – Unbrutal_Russian Oct 24 '21 at 22:58
  • 2
    If I understand correctly OP is saying that they find it hard to pronounce Latin ci gi as [ki gi], but rather pronounce them "as either palatal plosives [or] postalveolar affricates". Since [ki gi] are easily pronounceable sequences that are common in many languages, the obvious explanation would be L1 interference. But it might help to have more phonetic details. – TKR Oct 24 '21 at 23:55
  • @Unbrutal_Russian: Regarding qui/ngui, the fact that it has a non-affricated outcome in many Romance languages makes it hard for me to accept Allen's statement that qu was palatalized as well as labialized before front vowels; do you have any thoughts on this? – Asteroides Oct 25 '21 at 03:58
  • @Asteroides I disagree with his statement as well, for the same reason. His misinterpretation is due to the Romans' equating of the Greek Y with their VI in such a careless manner that Velius Longus even describes the correct pronunciation of /cui, hui/ as "tenuitatem Y litterae custodire" as opposed to /quoi, hoic/ which he describes as "plena OI syllaba dicere". From this it appears that which one was syllabic didn't matter - both /wi/ and /uj/ were equated to the Greek Y.—But a palatalised /qui/ might be continued precisely in Rum. and S.It., the two areas of heavy Greek influence. – Unbrutal_Russian Oct 25 '21 at 05:15
  • @TKR Judging by the fact that the ghi of Rumanian is the same as the Latin gi, as well as by the OP's "a velar consonant is articulated in the back", I'm fairly certain they're attempting and failing to pronounce a velar /g/ before palatal vowels, which is again physically impossible. The English ghee is minimally less palatalised than that of German, French and Portuguese, and all of them are barely distinguishable from the Ru. palatalised ги. What's easily noticeable is that it's voiceless in the English and German recordings. – Unbrutal_Russian Oct 25 '21 at 06:36
  • 1
    I can easily pronounce a velar [gi] with minimal fronting, and it seems implausible that the OP has the idea that the only correct Latin pronunciation involves no fronting at all, but I suppose it's possible that that's what's intended. We need more info. – TKR Oct 25 '21 at 06:57
  • @TKR I would like to hear your attempt. Again, the OP explicitly says "velar consonant is articulated in the back", and to a Turkish or Russian speaker the question makes total sense because in these languages the two pronunciations contrast. I don't believe you'll find a single language worldwide where the default allophone of /k/ before /i/ is a velar stop unless that language has contrastive palatalisation and the vowel after the non-palatalised /k/ necessarily velarises. – Unbrutal_Russian Oct 25 '21 at 07:22
  • 3
    This discussion, and in fact this question, really belong on Linguistics SE, but: a slightly fronted velar is still a velar. There are languages that contrast [ki] and [ci], not to mention plenty of languages that have [qi] (which should be even more impossible by the theory you're describing). – TKR Oct 25 '21 at 17:35
  • @TKR You're contesting my statement here, and in order to do so productively I will need you to 1) provide audio recordings illustrating the palatalised, non-p. and "slightly fronted" velars 2) comment on your perception the recordings I've linked 3) give concrete examples of the languages you've just mentioned including audio recordings and the reasoning for transcribing them this way.—You cannot determine which measurement is correct if you don't know which tool is miscalibrated, and you need to test them both using the same standard. – Unbrutal_Russian Oct 25 '21 at 21:06
  • 3
    I'm actually not sure how far recordings can take us here: if we're being technical, the difference between a velar and a palatal is whether the closure occurs on the soft or hard palate, and that's hard to tell from a recording. FWIW of your three recordings, the second (ghiveci) sounds least fronted to me, and I could probably find recordings with less fronting, but I couldn't tell you where the closure is happening without looking at a palatogram or the like. If you're saying that in every language in the world a sequence of velar plus front vowel is always fronted as far as the hard palate – TKR Oct 26 '21 at 00:26
  • 3
    ...then that's a strong claim which needs some evidence (and raises more questions -- how front does the vowel have to be?). But again, it seems unlikely to me that the question is about these very fine phonetic contrasts. – TKR Oct 26 '21 at 00:27
  • 1
    (FWIW, I did not downvote this answer.) – TKR Nov 04 '21 at 16:29
  • @TKR Thanks for letting me know - hopefully by reusing those observations from our discussion I didn't end up singling you out in an unfriendly way. – Unbrutal_Russian Nov 04 '21 at 16:45