1

The phrase 「どことなく」 (何処と無く) is translated in dictionaries as "somehow", "for some reason", or "vaguely". It seems to be the combination of どこ ("which place?") + と + なく (adverb form of ない).

Problem: I'm trying to understand how these three words combine to mean this (to help me better remember it, and hopefully also to understand it and similar phrases more deeply). In particular: which sense of と is being used to define this word (the quotative particle, the "and" particle, the particle meaning "with"?)?

My best guess is "some place and notly" (here "notly" is my attempt to turn English word "not" into an adverb to fit ない being a 副詞).

naruto
  • 313,860
  • 13
  • 324
  • 625
George
  • 2,804
  • 3
  • 14
  • It could be どこ／なんと（いう訳でも）なく but I’m not sure. I would suggest you not break it up like that. – aguijonazo Mar 16 '23 at 23:37
  • @aguijonazo goo breaks it up as どこと + なく, but doesn't identify it as a phonetic shift. What do you mean by the 訳でも? (Is でも like a trailing "but..." indicating uncertainty?) – George Mar 17 '23 at 00:07
  • It consists of どこ, と and なく, of course. I’m not sure what phonetic shift you are talking about. If your goal is to learn to use the language, rather than building some kind of lexical analysis system or something, I would suggest you memorize it as a whole. As for も, would you understand me if I said これといった理由もない? – aguijonazo Mar 17 '23 at 00:23
  • @aguijonazo: I thought you were originally suggesting that どことなく could possibly be a phonetic shift of the combo どこ+なんと . RE これといった理由もない, I would understand 理由もない as "there isn't even (も) a reason". I'm not sure what "これといった" adds; perhaps "there isn't even a spoken reason", but I'm not sure what これと is adding. これといった is a bit confusing since it seems to mean that somebody literally uttered the word "これ", which I don't think is what you mean here? If I had to guess at an idiomatic translation of the whole phrase, it would be "there isn't even a reason worth mentioning". – George Mar 17 '23 at 00:52

1 Answers1

5

That と is a quotative-と which can broadly mark "contents", so the combined literal meaning is something like "without (saying/specifying) where". どことなく means it's hard to pinpoint the cause, but you vaguely feel something. This is typically used when you are observing something visually and don't know what part of the thing gave you such an impression.

Similar set phrases include:

  • なんとなく (lit. "without (saying) what"), なんとはなしに
    → somehow; without any particular reason; I don't know why but ...
  • それとなく (lit. "without (saying) that")
    → indirectly; obliquely; in a roundabout way
  • どこからともなく (lit. "without (saying) from-where")
    → out of nowhere; I don't know where it came from but ...
  • いつからともなく (lit. "without (saying) from-when")
    → (something happened) before I knew; without noticing
  • だれからともなく (lit. "without (saying) from-who")
    → out of nowhere; spontaneously
  • だれにともなく (lit. "without (saying) to-who")
    → (say something) to no one in particular
  • なんともない (lit. "there is no (saying) anything")
    → no problem; nothing is wrong
  • いかんともしがたい (lit. "hard to do in any way")
    → nothing can be done; cannot be helped
  • そこはかとなく
naruto
  • 313,860
  • 13
  • 324
  • 625
  • Thanks for you answer. Do you why なく is its adverbial form in this (and the related) expressions you posted? – George Mar 17 '23 at 06:12
  • 1
    @George It's in its adverbial form because it's an adverb... – naruto Mar 17 '23 at 06:14
  • Makes sense :) Do you know with these examples when と is used in the quotative, or in これといった (the example aguijonazo posted), is the word marked by と literally spoken, or does it merely point to other word(s) which are spoken? E.g. in the case of これといった, does this mean "(Someone) said 'what'" or "(Someone) said what"? – George Mar 17 '23 at 06:26
  • 1
    @George No one is saying "kore" literally, just as "to say this and that" in English does not mean saying "this" and "that" literally. It's a set phrase with a fixed meaning, and that's why it's in dictionaries. – naruto Mar 17 '23 at 09:07