Why not ベジン or even 北京｛きたきょう｝?
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3I imagine it would be ベイジン, rather than べジン – Leebo Apr 04 '22 at 04:49
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3Note: According to Wiktionary, [北京]{ほっきょう} (note the different reading) was a historical term for Kyoto (the "Northern Capital"), as opposed to Nara (the "Southern Capital"), attested from the 13th century. – V2Blast Apr 04 '22 at 18:45
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1As an aside, this is not unique to Japanese. (That article also lists French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Bulgarian, Russian, Serbian, Dutch, German, Hungarian and Polish as languages that keep the old name). – Arthur Apr 05 '22 at 12:31
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2Interest only: When in China inadvertently referred to Beijing as Peking. I immediately corrected myself - and was immediately told by several Chinese friends present that use of Peking was entirely acceptable. – ATCSVOL Apr 05 '22 at 12:38
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1@ATCSVOL given how the speech and pronunciation is regarded as one of the most difficult things in Chinese for language learners, I can imagine how the distinction between Beijing and Peking does not really matter since when spoken by a non native speaker, either Beijing or Peking is going to sound wrong anyway when compared to the actual pronunciation of the word. – jarmanso7 Apr 18 '22 at 04:59
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Not related, but 北京 was originally 北平 under RoC rule, it was renamed to 北京 when Japanese took it over during WWII. Then after the Japanese surrendered, RoC reverted it back to 北平, then when the Communist won the civil war and set up their capital there, it was once again changed to 北京. – dvx2718 May 07 '22 at 01:44
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Supplementing the existing answer. Short answer: because there's neither /b/ nor /j/ in that word. Nor do they even exist in modern standard Chinese to begin with.
This may come as a surprise, but modern standard Chinese, aka Mandarin, lacks most voiced consonants. So there's no /b/, /g/, /j/, or /d/. Although the official romanization system for modern standard Chinese, aka pinyin, prescribes these phonetic symbols, they are really realized as non-aspirated voiceless consonants. But in Japanese—and English I may add, as well as most European languages that I have knowledge of—voiced consonants are prevalent.
The way Beijing is actually pronounced is something close to /peiching/.
For more accurate and technical explanations, check out this Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology
Technically, the sound that the pinyin j represents is [t͡ɕ], the voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant affricate, and it's the same consonant as /ch/ in ち.
The sound that the pinyin b represents is just a good ol unaspirated /p/, as the /p/ in spy.
This is actually the reason why native Chinese speakers seem to have a hard time telling apart か and が, ぱ and ば, た and だ, etc. See, for instance, this Q&A:
Eddie Kal
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1As a note, WWWJDIC lists "ペイチン" as an alternate spelling, presumably for exactly the reason you mention. – V2Blast Apr 04 '22 at 18:36
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I'm curious if the Chinese b (etc) sounds actually closer to the English p (etc) to native speakers. Japanese katakan-ization of Chinese usually (arguably wrongly) uses バ/ジ for b/j, like this. So Beijing would be ベイジン anyhow. – sundowner Apr 04 '22 at 22:55
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... In that case, why did English speakers change the romanization? – Karl Knechtel Apr 05 '22 at 02:29
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2@KarlKnechtel The pinyin romanization system was actually designed in the PRC. It's more economical than the previous dominant system (Wade-Giles) because it requires fewer doubled letters and doesn't rely on apostrophes to mark different sounds (e.g. WG ching and ch'ing for Pinyin jing and qing). Additionally it often maps more naturally to English letter values--most English speakers will read b as unaspirate and p as aspirate (even if we also wind up voicing b when Mandarin speakers don't) so at least people make part of the right distinction without instruction. – Tiercelet Apr 05 '22 at 18:34
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1@sundowner Sorry, are you asking if Chinese b sounds closer to English p to native speakers of Chinese, English, or Japanese? (Keep in mind "English p" is a little underdetermined here as it's realized in both aspirate and non-aspirate allophones anyway--the first and second p in "prosper" make different sounds that English speakers hear as the same thing. (The first, aspirate, one is pinyin p while the second, non-aspirate, one is pinyin b.) – Tiercelet Apr 05 '22 at 18:44
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1I am a native Mandarin speaker and this is just flat out wrong. Not sure about other dialects, but b in Mandarin is exactly the same as b in English. – Aqualone Apr 05 '22 at 19:26
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@Tiercelet I meant English speakers would hear p when they hear pinyin b. So according to your comments, the answers is yes? Japanese native speakers always have difficulty distinguishing aspirated/non-aspirated. – sundowner Apr 05 '22 at 21:45
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@Aqualone Hmm, that is interesting... Anyway probably we should not continue like this. I will post a question some day in Chinese SE. – sundowner Apr 05 '22 at 21:47
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"most English speakers will read b as unaspirate and p as aspirate" I don't read anything as unaspirate or aspirate by default, because it isn't phonemic in English. I can scarcely hear the difference in the first place and it takes considerable conscious effort on my part to speak it. "the first and second p in "prosper" make different sounds" As usual for such examples, I'm not convinced. – Karl Knechtel Apr 06 '22 at 08:40
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The issue is that more that voiced/unvoiced plosives is not a phonemic distinction in Mandarin (though it is in other Chinese languages, e.g. Shanghainese or Taiwanese). Voicing still happens sometimes; see https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/4860/does-mandarin-chinese-have-phonetically-voiced-plosives-fricatives-or-affricat Basically it matters only to linguists. @KarlKnechtel put your fingers in front of your mouth and say them; there's a much bigger puff of air on the aspirate ones. You won't hear the difference b/c it doesn't matter for English phonetics so you tune it out. – Tiercelet Apr 06 '22 at 13:42
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@Tiercelet I tried the exercise of putting my fingers in front of my mouth and say the word "prosper" several times. I found out two things: 1) I probably pronounce it in the wrong way, because I can't tell the difference in the puff of air between the 2 "p". & 2) I look like a fool. – jarmanso7 Apr 18 '22 at 05:07
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@sundowner I just found this page. Pretty sure there's a whole bunch of studies on this in Japan. I have a feeling classical Chinese is well studied at Japanese universities. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B8%85%E6%BF%81 – Eddie Kal May 25 '22 at 00:25
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@EddieKal Possibly. But either way there is no widely known (approximate) correspondence list. There is some better known facts like p入声, but the rest is more of expert matters. – sundowner May 25 '22 at 08:52
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It came from a reading that existed in China. Note 北京大学 is Peking University.
日本では一般的に「ペキン」と読む。この読みは中国南部の方言の唐音に由来する歴史的な読み方である[2]。1906年制定の郵政式アルファベット表記でもPekingと表記されている。
I believe PekingPékin is used to call 北京 in French as well (like ペカン).
sundowner
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1In French we say either "Pékin" or "Beijing". I've never seen "Peking" before, and Wikipedia tells me it's English that uses "Peking". – Stef Apr 05 '22 at 08:49
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I never knew the spelling is different, thanks. As far as I remember, RFI always uses Pékin. – sundowner Apr 05 '22 at 09:51
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It's ペキン because the actual official name for Bejing is Peking. For example, in Beijing, there's a famous dish called Peking roast duck, not Beijing roast duck. It's also caught on.
JDN
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