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This website explains that:

「～ところへ／に」は、ある段階における状況を変化させるような出来事が起こることを表すと説明した方がいい。
to indicate event that will change the situation in certain stage
(this is my own translation (it might be incorrect))

「～ところで」は、前の動作が終わり、一区切りがついた時点で、後の変化が起きる、又は動作を起こす。
In a point of time when the action is over and there's a break, another action happens / perform another action
(this is my own translation too)

ふっとうしたところへとりにくを入れます。

I think ところで is more suitable (even though I think it's wrong) in this sentence because 「前の動作が終わり、一区切りがついた時点で、後の変化が起きる、又は動作を起こす。」

前の動作が終わり = ふっとうした　後の変化が起きる = 肉を入れます

But anyway, I feel like I don't understand the difference between ところで and ところに/へ at all because when I feel it's unnatural when I use it. See also Usage of ところ to represent time with に and で

broccoli forest
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Kyuu
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1 Answers1

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A simple explanation about the difference between ところに/へ and ところで is that the former takes not only time but space aspect of an event into consideration.

  • X ところで Y: Y at the same moment X happens
  • X ところへ/に Y: Y at the same moment, same place X happens

ふっとうしたところ（へ／で）とりにくを入れます

Both will work in this example, because according to my common sense, it instructs you to put chicken into the pot when water in it boils. However,

○ ふっとうしたところでとりにくをやきはじめます
× ふっとうしたところへとりにくをやきはじめます

because, if I'm correct, you can't roast meat in the pot with boiling water inside. In order to do so, you have to bring another utensil to put your meat in, and it is not the same place the boiling takes place in.

A little deeper reasoning for that is that へ/に are particles to mark the destination of action (i.e. towards it), unlike で which denotes general background settings. Even they are idioms, their usages are bound by grammar. That also means you can't use ところへ/に when the verb don't accept it.

○ 渋谷を歩いているところに先生が来た
× 渋谷を歩いているところに先生と会った
○ 先生が渋谷を歩いているところに会った

When you use 会う "meet / run into" with the other one marked by と, you can no more use に in this construction.

broccoli forest
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  • Thank you very much. I do understand most of it. But I stuck in a sentence "That also means you can't use ところへ/に when the verb don't accept it." Why it's ungrammatical to use particle に after ところ when there's と particle at the end of the sentence. (× 渋谷を歩いているところに先生と会った) What does not accept ところに here. In my opinion, I consider it "X ところへ/に Y: Y at the same moment, same place X happens" (the answer above) 渋谷を歩いているところに先生と会った X = (someoneが)渋谷を歩いてるところに Y =（same personが)先生と会った. – Kyuu Jun 18 '20 at 10:20
  • I've never known the concept of when a verb accept some particle (When you use 会う "meet / run into" with the other one marked by と, you can no more use に in this construction.). BTW, I'm grateful for your help. – Kyuu Jun 18 '20 at 10:20
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    @Kyuu By "verb accepts particle" I wanted to say that a verb has its case framework. For example, in English you can say "give you a gift" and "give a gift to you" but you can't mix it like "I gave you a gift to your secretary" (to mean something like "I handed a gift for you to your secretary"). – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 03:09
  • "X = (someoneが)渋谷を歩いてるところに Y =（same personが)先生と会った" Mmm... I think I can get its meaning with that context, but somehow felt not right (in parsing sense) to me. – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 03:22
  • Oh I know... it's a valid sentence if that と means "who accompanies you" rather than "who you meet" (object). In other words, it's okay to say it when "you and 先生 ran into X who was walking in Shibuya". – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 03:29
  • If it's ok, I want to ask some more questions After I kept on reading, I think I figure it out a bit. I want to re-sum up ×渋谷を歩いているところに先生と会った. The reason that と can't be used because there's 会う (generally 会う can be used with に and と, if used with に it'd express that someone run into someone accidentally but if used with と it'd be someone calls the other and plans to meet each other) So in ×渋谷を歩いているところに先生と会った, 会う here already accepted に that's following ところ (ところに). Therefore, it will be odd and hard to understand by using 会う with に and と in the same sentence. Is it correct ? – Kyuu Jun 19 '20 at 11:02
  • Please let me rephrase your example a bit. 先生が渋谷を歩いているところに(私が）会った implies only one thing that’s “I met the teacher when he was walking down Shibuya road (the place I met the teacher was Shibuya Road” It’s a bit different from 先生が渋谷を歩いている時に私があった.
    It implies that “While the teacher was walking down Shibuya road, I met someone not being mentioned (could be 先生 but I think most people are confused by this kind of phrasing and it’s almost not spoken)” This is my way of thinking of the difference betweenところに/へ andときに right now. How is it ?     – Kyuu Jun 19 '20 at 11:03
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    And the last question (I hope) 1.最後の問題が解けたところで(X)、試験終了のチャイムが鳴ったんだ(Y)。 2.試合時間が残り一分を切ったところで(X)、ゴールを決められて負けてしまった(Y)。 I think ところに/へ can be used in these 2 sentences too because Y happens in the same place X happens. 1 = Chime ringing in the place the problem is solved (maybe the place is school) 2 = Goal was made in the place where the time is less than 1 minute (maybe the place football was stadium) Is it usable ? – Kyuu Jun 19 '20 at 11:04
  • @Kyuu For the 先生と会った example, it's still grammar problem. In English we can say "fight with X" with X as either friend or foe. If foe, it is same as saying "fight X" and X's role in this sentence remains same. When you use the "fight X" pattern, the "with" slot is freed up, but that doesn't mean you can say "fight X with(=against) Y", because it's semantically duplicate. "fight X with(=together) Y" is okay even you use the same "with". Now, 会う can possibly take either と and に to mark who you meet, but with に you can describe not only person but person+situation. – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 15:48
  • The thing is, when you use に with 会う, it is always considered that ～に part represents the information about who you meet. Thus when you say "Xと会う" where X is the person you meet, you can't use another に because of confliction. Since the idiom ところに use the very に, it could never be valid to use it alongside the objective と. However, if the と just mean "who is together with you", it's okay. This belongs to technical problem of Japanese. BTW 渋谷を歩いているところで先生と会った is acceptable just because it doesn't use に (but ideally you should say 渋谷を歩いていたところで). – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 15:58
  • For your additional questions, 最後の問題が解けたところに is invalid because 鳴る doesn't take に ("ring in the place" is ～で鳴る). But you change the verb to 鳴り響く to make it correct (because ～に響く means "resound in/through [place]"). 試合時間が残り一分を切ったところに is okay. – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 16:05
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – broccoli forest Jun 19 '20 at 17:01