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Is ojiisan an idiomatic word choice for a chronologically gifted man, akin to obaasan for elderly women? For example, when giving your seat to them on the train.

Tsuyoshi Ito
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Golden Cuy
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  • What do you mean by idiomatic? Idiom is an expression that means something different from what you expect by composing the meaning of its parts. Obviously, a single word cannot be an idiom. And there is a usage of おじいさん as an old man. Isn't it the same in English? Doesn't grandpa or grandma mean 'old man' and 'old' woman' even if they do not have grandsons or even if they are not said from their grandsons? –  Feb 09 '12 at 02:21
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    @sawa: Well, "grandpa" and "grandma" are very definitely not literal terms - they are practically young people's slang in this context. I think Andrew is asking whether the Japanese terms are anything more than that. (By the way, the English terms - when not used by grandchildren to grandparents, of course - are intended to be rather disrespectful. I get the impression that this is not the case with the Japanese terms.) – Billy Feb 09 '12 at 03:45
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    Incidentally, you'll notice that this has been tagged with "politeness", which may be related to the comment I made in brackets above. – Billy Feb 09 '12 at 03:53
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    @sawa "idiomatic" is a common (non-technical) way to say "fluent" or "natural" (w/r/t language). "Idiom" is often used in a broader sense beyond the narrow technical one you give. So the question is essentially "Would it be natural to call an old man 'ojiisan' when giving him your seat on the train?", and simply noting that "grandpa" is similar to "ojiisan" does not answer this because the social context is different. There is nothing wrong with the question at all in my opinion. – Matt Feb 09 '12 at 04:10
  • I meant idiomatic as in "natural", as Matt said. – Golden Cuy Feb 09 '12 at 05:29
  • @Billy I don't think grandpa and grandma is only used by young people, but agree that it is primarily young people's slang. To that extent, おじいさん and おばあさん are not different. They are also young people's slang (but is also used by non-young people). A more adult way to say it is 祖父 and 祖母. –  Feb 09 '12 at 13:25
  • @sawa: "Idiom is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning that is comprehended in regard to a common use of that expression that is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made." – jkerian Feb 09 '12 at 15:43
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    This is not "idiomatic", just straight up dictionary definition of the word. – Dave Feb 09 '12 at 15:46
  • @jkerian "[a] word ... that has ... the meaning ... separate from the ... meaning ... of the words of which it is made [from]" That looks self-contradicting if my interpretation of your sentence is correct. How can a word be made from words (Besides compound words, which are irrelevant here)? –  Feb 09 '12 at 15:52
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    +1 for "chronologically gifted". That made me laugh! :D – istrasci Feb 09 '12 at 18:00
  • @sawa: A word can have a literal meaning and a figurative meaning, so the definition which jkerian quoted from Wikipedia without stating the source is not contradicting itself. However, I would not call a word used in a figurative meaning an idiom, so I disagree with that definition. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 10 '12 at 14:09
  • @TsuyoshiIto What do you think about "a word being made of words"? And, thanks for making clear that jkerian just stole the definition. I see so many people on this site who just copy wikipedia, thinking it is authoritic. –  Feb 10 '12 at 14:15
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    @sawa: “[T]he words of which it is made,” where “it” includes “word,” is a little sloppy wording, but I think that its intended meaning is clear. For example, consider “mirror” in “Television is a mirror of current life.” (This example is from 新グローバル英和). The Wikipedia article claims that this “mirror” is an idiom, which is a word made of a single word “mirror” (yeah, this is inaccurate!), and the meaning here is different from its literal meaning. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 10 '12 at 14:51
  • @TsuyoshiIto Okay. Thanks for the explanation. –  Feb 10 '12 at 15:19
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    @sawa: "authoritative", not "authoritic". The latter is not a real word. – istrasci Feb 10 '12 at 18:07
  • @istraci: could have been worse. I've seen people use "authoritarian" when they didn't mean that! – Golden Cuy Feb 11 '12 at 01:56
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    I find everyone's bickering and nitpicking quite rude. It doesn't matter what you think "idiomatic" means or doesn't mean here. Someone who knows the answer, please tell the original poster (and me, and anyone else who might want to know) what the words おじいさん and おばあさん mean, literally and figuratively, and what connotations these words might have, and how natural they are in the context. Any answer along these lines I'm sure will be sufficient. (And please stop attacking people for not knowing how to ask their questions - isn't that how everyone starts out?!) – Billy Feb 11 '12 at 03:11
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    @Billy: (1) I have to understand what the question is before I can answer the question. I had been forgetting that “idiomatic” can mean “natural,” and I could not understand what Andrew was asking because of that. So the meaning of the word matters. (2) You should understand that even while no one has posted an answer, someone may be struggling to write an answer. I started writing an answer 22 hours ago and realized that it is hard to explain. It took me some time to finish it. Seeing a comment like saying “Answer the question or shut up” is at least not encouraging. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 11 '12 at 12:27
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    @TsuyoshiIto: (1) This meaning of "idiomatic" was pointed out long before you stopped debating it. This in itself isn't bad, but the problem is the next point: (2) This is entirely reasonable, of course, but please consider how it looks to those who ask questions for you to nitpick and show no signs of writing an answer. If you're writing an answer and it's taking you a while, but you want to discuss issues irrelevant to the original question in the meantime, then that's fine, but in my opinion it's just sensible to point out that you're writing an answer, so as not to seem rude. – Billy Feb 11 '12 at 20:04
  • @Billy: (1) I cannot understand what you want to say. You made a wrong claim that what people think “idiomatic” means in the question was irrelevant, and I explained that it was relevant. This is as simple as that. (2) You reply only shows that you have no idea how hard it is for me to write an answer. I can never predict whether I can finish writing an answer before I actually finish writing, and there is no point declaring that I am preparing an answer before I post it. If it looks rude to you, then there is nothing I can do about it. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 12 '12 at 14:21
  • @TsuyoshiIto: (1) It was relevant up until the point at which it was explained. After Matt's explanation of the word "idiomatic" (i.e. before comments from you, sawa, Dave and istrasci), the question became clear, your thoughts on the matter became irrelevant, and the subsequent discussion of an English word between (I think) two Japanese speakers, while both failed to produce an answer to the original question for almost a full day, became rude. (2) Okay, though even half-finished thoughts from a native speaker are better than nothing. I appreciate your eventual answer, anyway. – Billy Feb 12 '12 at 21:55
  • @Billy: Say whatever you want to say. You can keep saying my behavior is rude. I did not post my answer for you anyway. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 12 '12 at 22:11
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    @mina-san: If you wish to continue this conversation, please take it to chat or meta. – Golden Cuy Feb 12 '12 at 23:43

2 Answers2

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おじいさん means both a grandfather and an elderly man. When written in kanji, it is written as お祖父さん when it means grandfather, and written as お爺さん when it means elderly man. The same applies to おばあさん (お祖母さん/お婆さん).

It is natural to call an elderly man おじいさん. However, I have heard that some people do not like the use of おじいさん and おばあさん which mean elderly man and woman, and that in particular they do not like to be called that way. I guess that the reason for this is that calling a person おじいさん or おばあさん may imply that the most relevant attribute of the person is his/her age. Although I do not find it reasonable, I may hesitate to call someone who I do not know at all おじいさん or おばあさん to avoid unnecessary conflict.

By the way, similarly to おじいさん and おばあさん, おじさん can mean an uncle or a middle-aged man, and written as 伯父さん (elder brother of parent), 叔父さん (younger brother of parent), or 小父さん (middle-aged man, but not commonly written in kanji). The same applies to おばさん (伯母さん, 叔母さん, 小母さん).

Tsuyoshi Ito
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    You might also want to add similar uses of おねえさん and おにいさん. –  Feb 11 '12 at 13:41
  • If one feels uncomfortable calling an elderly person ojiisan or obaasan or the elderly person feels uncomfortable hearing it, what would be the alternative? – dotnetN00b Feb 11 '12 at 15:47
  • @sawa: Thanks for point it out. I will try to edit the answer when I have time, but for now I hope your mentioning in the comment is sufficient. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 11 '12 at 22:37
  • @dotnetN00b: An obvious answer is to use an age-neutral word, but then an obvious next question is what it is. Depending on what you want to say after that, words like すみません, あの, and ちょっと may work. – Tsuyoshi Ito Feb 11 '12 at 22:39
  • @TsuyoshiIto: In English, we would just use sir or ma'am. Does Japanese having similar words? Or is using just: すみません, あの, or ちょっと acceptable? (All of which pertaining to the OP's original context.) – dotnetN00b Feb 12 '12 at 01:20
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    @dotnetN00b: That is definitely very American English, and (as a Brit) I would feel awkward addressing anyone I didn't know as "sir" or "ma'am" or indeed anything. I don't think there are particularly natural-sounding words in British English, and I'd just go for "erm, excuse me" or words of the sort. So maybe it's not too strange to do so in Japanese either. :) – Billy Feb 12 '12 at 21:59
  • I had no idea. In America, you don't really hear people use it nowadays, but it's not awkward or odd. Well you learn something new everyday. – dotnetN00b Feb 13 '12 at 00:40
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Note that you can also call middle-aged woman 奥さん and middle-aged man 旦那さん, ご主人さん. (What I mean by middle-aged is 35~55+). Not really used by young people, rather between middle-aged people or from staff to customer; さん becomes さま then.

As well, you can call young people (15~30) おにいさん/おねえさん even if they are younger than you. In Kansai, we call staff this way too (I believe it's not common in Tokyo area).

oldergod
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  • Can I ask why this answer was downvoted? Is the information inaccurate? – Billy Feb 12 '12 at 21:57
  • My owly thought is that it doesn't directly answer the OP's question. Although it does address sawa's request. Note, I did not downvote oldergod's answer. – dotnetN00b Feb 13 '12 at 00:39
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    @Billy I think that the situation for 奥さん, ご主人さん, and perhaps for 旦那さん are different from kinship words like "おじいさん", "おばあさん", "おじさん", "おばさん", "おねえさん", "おにいさん". Leaving aside the fact that the former words have literal meanings different from what they are intended here and that they are politically incorrect under such usage, under the usage in question here, they are used by a third person in their practical usage ("wife" or "husband") which exists irrespective of the situation relevant here. They are used under the assumption that the person is actually a wife or husband of someone. –  Feb 13 '12 at 01:14
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    @Billy If it turns out that the person is not married, then it would be awkward to use it. That means that this usage is different in nature from the usage of "おじいさん", "おばあさん", "おじさん", "おばさん", "おねえさん", "おにいさん" mentioned here. –  Feb 13 '12 at 01:15
  • Not really. They are not used if you know the person is not married. But they are used if you don't know. – oldergod Feb 13 '12 at 03:03
  • Exactly like 'Madam' is begin used actually. – oldergod Feb 13 '12 at 04:11