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I thought the participle doesn't agree with object when the auxiliary verb is 'avere'. But while watching the film "13dici a tavola" (2004), I am coming across examples like:

  • (18:40) The housekeeper says: "Mi scusi, l'avevo riconosciuta, ma ero nell'orto."
  • (22:48) Matilde says: "Cos'è, l'ho detta troppo grossa?"

Is this colloquialism or peculiarity of the Tuscan dialect?

Charo
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1 Answers1

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I thought the participle doesn't agree with object when the auxiliary verb is 'avere'.

This only applies when the direct object isn’t a clitic pronoun attached to the auxiliary. I have made a flowchart that explains the process:

enter image description here

Tom S. Fox
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    Your flowchart is interesting, but I'm not sure if, in your examples, "ne" can be called "adverb". Maybe it would be better to call it "pronominal particle". – Charo Sep 23 '18 at 19:21
  • Anyway, the final sentence of your chart maybe should be something like "In modern Italian, past participle usually remains uninflected" because of this kind of issues. – Charo Sep 23 '18 at 22:04
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    This flowchart looks unnecessarily complex: it inspires awe rather than clarifying a matter that can be explained with a couple of sentences (and I'm a mathematician, I love flowcharts per se). – DaG Sep 23 '18 at 22:36
  • @DaG: If you have suggestions on how to simplify the chart, feel free to tell me. – Tom S. Fox Sep 24 '18 at 02:15
  • Tom, when several native speakers, some of them who have studied more than a bit of grammar, tell you that ne in this case is a pronominal particle and give you references, you should probably listen (It is true that ne and ci can also be adverbs, e.g. in Ne partii la mattina presto, words are allowed to have more than one meaning, but not in this context). I suggest you ask it as a separate question. I'm moving the discussion to chat. – Denis Nardin Sep 24 '18 at 07:15
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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Denis Nardin Sep 24 '18 at 07:15
  • @Denis Nardin: No one is denying that ne and ci are pronominal particles, but they are also pronominal adverbs, and I’m the only one who has been citing references in regards to this. Here are a few more: http://archive.is/IkJCo https://tinyurl.com/yawtjs92 Also, has it ever occurred to you that I might be a native speaker, too? Or that I may have studied linguistics in general and Italian in particular for far longer than you have? – Tom S. Fox Feb 01 '19 at 10:26
  • @TomS.Fox No disrespect intended, sorry if that was harsher than I intended. I'll be the first to admit that I'm at best an amateur at linguistics. Unfortunately the links you give contain only segment fragments for me, so it's hard for me to judge them. I'd be honestly interested in hearing an argument in favor of treating ne, ci and vi as adverbs in this context, especially since the almost totality of Italian grammars explicitly refer to them as pronouns (for a particularly illustrious example see Rohlfs, paragraph 465 Espressione pronominale del genitivo). – Denis Nardin Feb 01 '19 at 10:37
  • Regardless, I think this conversation is best held in chat than in comments – Denis Nardin Feb 01 '19 at 10:37