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[Note:- I am rephrasing my question as otherwise my question will be closed; so the warning says.]

Do those who do not have the Law of God with them perish straight? That is what the Scripture says in Rom 2:12. That means there is no salvation without Law.

The Scripture also says that it is the “doers of the Law” that will be justified (Rom 2:13) and not the hearers. If the hearers are not justified then those who have never heard or known God’s Law also will not be justified! Without hearing or knowing the Law, they cannot be doers because the spiritual law is spiritually discerned.

But how will the natural man of the world do the spiritual law because “a natural man (the unconverted mind) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor 2:14).

Again the Scripture says, “And so people become enemies of God when they are controlled by their human nature (the unconverted mind); for they do not obey God's law, and in fact they cannot obey it” (Rom 8:7; GNB).

The unconverted human nature “is stupid, disobedient, foolish, a slave of all sorts of desires and pleasures, evil and jealous, hating” (Tit 3:3).

Premise 1: The Scripture says that no one is righteous in the ultimate sense (except Jesus). At one time or another, all humanity has sinned and fallen short.

Romans 3:9-18

9 What then? Do we excel? No, in no way; for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks all with being under sin, 10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; 11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." 12 "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips; 14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;" 15 "their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 destruction and misery are in their way, 17 and the way of peace they did not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Premise 2: The above whole sinful humanity is bifurcated into two groups by the same Scripture: Those who have sinned within Law and those who have sinned without Law.

Romans 2:12

For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law

Question: Since according to Romans 2:12, whoever sins without Law straight perishes also without Law it becomes logically clear that there is no Salvation without Law!. There is no mention of conscience here.

The only hope is for those who sin within the Law because there is a judgment for them. In that judgment, they either get convicted or acquitted.

So, how can one say there is salvation through faith alone apart from God’s Law?

Clarification 1: Romans 2:21-23 shows clearly that by Law Paul meant the Ten Commandments which are “holy”, “just and good” (Romans 7:12), and “spiritual” (Romans 7:14). Since they are spiritual, they cannot be intellectually discerned by a natural unconverted man.

Clarification 2: Also, unlike the secular definition, the Scriptural definition of sin is this: “Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law” (1 John 3:4; GNB).

Clarification 3: True, Paul talks about the Gentile Christians and their consciences (Romans 2:14). But these are those “who show the work of the Law written in their hearts” (verse 15). So these are the true Gentile Christians who do “the things of the Law” (verse 14) which were written in their hearts and minds by God as per the New Covenant (Hebrews 10:16). They are not pagan Gentiles who do not know about God’s Law!

Nephesh Roi
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    Your assertion there is no salvation without law is not in scripture. Romans 2:12 does not support that statement. The question is unclear and requires more clarity and detail on this point. . . . . . . a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ Galatians 2:16. We are dead to the law by the body of Christ is the truth. – Nigel J Dec 07 '23 at 17:38
  • @NigelJ.. If the verse is read by itself it may seem that Paul implies there is no salvation without law, but he is not talking about salvation at this point. He is talking about judgment within the Torah for Jews and judgment without it for Gentiles. He is laying the foundation to express his doctrine of salvation later on in the book. – Dan Fefferman Dec 07 '23 at 18:56
  • The original "question" is actually some sect's creed dressed up as a question. And probably should be moved to christianity.se, or closed. – Ruminator Dec 07 '23 at 21:13
  • There are countless ques on this passage, search we'll before posting a new one. They are not Xian Gentiles but pagans mentioned as righteous. The phrase "none is righteous" is merely a general statement, but for Gnostics it's the central creed of their religion bec its used in justifying lawlessness or Sin. Paul never suggested faith alone, as believed by Gnostics. He only says works of law are now invalid. Faith justification is just one means, not the only. – Michael16 Dec 08 '23 at 03:27
  • If u search for Romans 2:12 you will also see a topic if it refer to Gentiles or Christians. Also, your point about Rom 2:12 that it says no salvation without law is non sequitur. It just says those who sin without law perish without law, those who sin in law die acc to the law. https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/search?q=Romans+2%3A12+Gentiles there are also questions on contradiction with this and Ephesians 2 verse. So, all your questions have been specifically asked before. – Michael16 Dec 08 '23 at 04:13
  • @Michael16 – In fact I searched here before preparing the question. A pop up also came out saying there are no related topics. However, you are right, I didn’t search well (thoroughly). I will keep your advice in mind henceforth. Thanks for the support. – Nephesh Roi Dec 08 '23 at 07:38
  • @Ruminator – The Jews called Apostle Paul “pestilent” and “a ringleader of the Nazarene sect” (Acts 24:5). I am no way near that. – Nephesh Roi Dec 08 '23 at 07:39
  • @Nigel J – Romans 2:12 talks about perishing which, I think, is the opposite of salvation. So the verse touches upon salvation. Justification and salvation are not the same, though related. – Nephesh Roi Dec 08 '23 at 07:39
  • The verse says they perish due to sin, not due to being without law. The passage describes the doers of the law are righteous, not the shearers, thus even Gentile unbelievers are righteous without law. Religion or faith means nothing. – Michael16 Dec 08 '23 at 08:12

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First we should clarify that the subject here is not salvation but judgment. Moreover, vs. 10 says that Gentiles and Jews get the same reward for doing good (see below). But in fact the word "salvation" has not yet appeared at this point in Romans. Thus, Paul begins the chapter with a caution to avoid judging others, for only God is a just judge:

by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such [sinful] things is true. 3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Regarding Rom. 2:12, here is how I read it: The Jews were under the covenant of the Law (Torah) and thus held to a higher standard while Gentiles were "outside the law" had to obey fewer commandments, based on the Noahidic covenant. But both receive the same rewards (glory, honor, and peace) and punishments (affliction and distress) for the crimes mentioned in ch. 1, such as idolatry and murder. The earlier part of the chapter clarifies this somewhat:

God... will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

So those "without the law" (Greeks) receive the same reward that Jews do, if they do well. But this clearly does not express Paul's idea of salvation - redemption through Jesus. It has to do with God's justly rewarding and punishing people based on their works. Paul will go on to show that everyone, regardless of their good works, falls short of the glory of God and is need of redemption. (Romans 3:23) On that foundation he will teach the Gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus' atoning death on the Cross.

Conclusion: Rom. 2:12 does not refer to the Christian doctrine of salvation. Rather, it is part of Paul's laying the foundation to express that teaching. In context, the passage teaches that Jews are judged according to the Torah; Gentiles by a less strict standard. Both groups are judged by their works and both receive rewards or punishments accordingly. But, as the Book of Romans will expressed later on, neither those within the covenant of the Torah nor those outside of it are "saved" in the Pauline sense.

Dan Fefferman
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  • – So in effect God has double standard in judging people; strict one for Jews and “less strict” for others. But God says, “One judgment is for you; as a sojourner so is a native; for I am your God YHWH” (Lev 24:22). – Nephesh Roi Dec 08 '23 at 07:41
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The answer to this question is a bit messier than some would have us believe.

For the sake of the following discussion, we will define “Pagan” as a person who is neither Christian nor Jew. Then we ask the question, “Can pagans be saved, as pagans?” The Bible appears to answer affirmatively.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.” Rom 2:14, 15.

See also Ps 87:4-6. Further, 1 John 4:7 claims that, “Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.”

In fact, the Bible contains numerous examples of pagans behaving like (or often better than) Jews and Christians and receiving divine information, visions and advising Jews and Christians.

  • Pharaoh rebukes Abram after a vision from God. Gen 12:17-20
  • Abimelech rebukes Abraham after a vision from God. Gen 20:3-6
  • Abimelech rebukes Isaac about Rebekah. Gen 26:8-11
  • The Philistine king Achish appeared to recognize YHWH, the LORD, in 1 Sam 29:6, 7.
  • King Necho of Egypt rebukes Josiah’s foolishness. 2 Chron 35:20-22
  • Jonah was the divine agent in saving the pagan city of Nineveh without the need for them becoming Jews. Jonah 3:4-10
  • The magi (“wise men”) of the east were avid students of Scripture. Matt 2:1, 2, 11, 12.
  • Several Roman Centurions were obviously saved. Matt 8:5-12, Luke 23:47, Acts 10:30-35.

To this list could be added others like Cain (Gen 4) being rebuked for murder, etc.

Note that all of these people were ignorant (or did not keep or understand) the Torah BUT they knew and understood the moral law.

Now recall Paul's teaching that:

And where there is no law there is no transgression. Rom 4:15

If there is no law then there is no sin and no need of salvation! As shown above, while "pagans' do not have the ceremonial law, all are aware of the moral law and thus have sinned and need redemption.

Dottard
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  • – You are very much right, the answer is not that simple. Just before we saw that Paul charged all under sin! “By nature” “none is righteous”. Only through a conscious acceptance of Jesus’ blood anyone will be cleansed! All these basic doctrines are “milk” for infants (Heb 5:13). Heb 6:1-2 talks about all these basic foundational things as “the elementary doctrine of Christ”. – Nephesh Roi Dec 08 '23 at 07:42
  • – The Pagans you say as mentioned in Rom 2:14-15 are not “pagans as pagans”. They are Christians. That is why I gave Clarification 3. The work of the Law “written in their hearts” clearly shows that they are all called by God into the second and “better” Covenant, just as prophesied by God through Jeremiah (Jer 31:33; Heb 10:16). – Nephesh Roi Dec 08 '23 at 07:42