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“when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” ‭‭Job‬ ‭38:7‬ ‭

This verse speaks of heavenly beings in the course of creation.

Is there any indication that heavenly beings could, can, might predate Creation itself? By Creation I would argue before the heavens and earth were Created at the beginning, before the very first day of everything/anything?

Nihil Sine Deo
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    God created the 'heavens' (plural) and the earth. The invisible heavens (the second heavens) would indicate the principalities and powers whose very existence is necessary for matter to exist. Up-voted +1. These beings are part of the creation. – Nigel J Feb 18 '22 at 10:56
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    @Nihil Sine Deo Angels are creatures, ergo, they cannot predate creation analytically. – Levan Gigineishvili Feb 18 '22 at 17:54
  • Precisely @LevanGigineishvili – Nihil Sine Deo Feb 18 '22 at 18:18

3 Answers3

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Do angels predate Creation?

We can look at the preceding verses to find an answer.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?–Job 38:4-7 (ESV)

The words spoken are from Jehovah God himself as is clearly written in verse 1. He begins to ask Job questions a series of questions. Beginning with verse 4, Jehovah God starts talking about creation; ". . . when I laid the foundation of the earth?"

Verse 6 continues this line of questions then in verse 7 he says "when the morning stars sang together", past tense. So we could ask ourselves, how could the morning stars/sons of God (or angels, see Who are the morning stars in Job 38:7?) have sung, past tense, if they were created after the earth as mentioned in vss 4-6?

The Scriptures themselves provide the answer that the morning stars/sons of God would have been come into existence prior to the creation of the earth.

agarza
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  • I appreciate your response but laying the earth on a foundation presupposes the existence of the earth. So that isn’t a smoking gun to say, the heavenly beings were definitely created prior to the earth’s creation. It just says they witnessed when the earth was placed on its foundations and it’s bases were sunk – Nihil Sine Deo Feb 18 '22 at 17:01
  • Ah, I see what you are asking for now. Then the problem comes in determining when the creation itself began. If nothing existed (except Jehovah God himself) then anything he creates would be the beginning of creation which would include the angels if they were first. – agarza Feb 18 '22 at 17:05
  • Exactly right. Heavenly beings require a heaven to exist in. Heavenly beings also have heavenly bodies so they cannot exist outside of time, space. Regardless of when one thinks the beginning is, the heavenly beings had to be after. Which ties into John 17:5&24 where Jesus claims to be before Creation – Nihil Sine Deo Feb 18 '22 at 17:07
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Genesis 1:26-28: "Let us create man in our image"

The one position (a) is that this refers to the heavenly household (including those we refer to as angels and of course the future Messiah) who were in attendance or (b) a different opinion that it refers to a three "persons" trinity.

Either way - the most interesting thing is that we bear a likeness to those we cannot see in our form - which means the one we call "God" whether "triune" or not has a form after which our own is patterned as do those we call angels.

JD__Chicago
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  • Welcome to Bible Hermeneutics SE and thank you for your contribution. When you get a chance, please take the [tour] to understand how the site works and how it is different than others. – agarza Feb 18 '22 at 17:36
  • Sorry this doesn’t address the question – Nihil Sine Deo Feb 18 '22 at 18:18
  • Thank you for the welcome - seems we have only two choices regarding the question. Either man was created before the angels or the angels were created before man - which reverts to God's statement "Let US create man in OUR image" so since man was NOT present where God uttered that statement there have to be "others" present (the heavenly household) [and a counter that God was referring to himself as "us" a,k,a, triune won't work because God is never portrayed nor described as an "us" anywhere in either the Hebrew or Greek text with all due respect] so angles must be there first before man. – JD__Chicago Feb 20 '22 at 19:54
  • Would just add to the string regarding "which came first, man or angels" - another example of God talking to "someone" (and it wasn't to man) in Genesis 3:22 “And the Lord God said, ‘The man has now become like one of US..." - so either God was muttering to Himself or talking to and ABOUT angels who shared with God the ability to "live forever". – JD__Chicago Feb 21 '22 at 17:41
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It is a debated point in Job 38:7 exactly who "morning stars" and "sons of God" are. However, this does not matter for the current discussion. The fact remains that whoever these heavenly beings are, they existed before the creation of our world.

Now, whether they were created before the rest of the universe or not is another question entirely about which we have no information.

It is clear from the data in Gen 1 that we have two possibilities to understand the account as we have it. Either:

  1. The bulk of the universe (including the unfinished earth) existed when God engaged in the series of events over 6 literal days in Gen 1; thus, the events described in Gen 1 only concern the surface of our planet. That is, the sun, moon and stars had been created at a previous time and only became visible on day 4.
  2. Many believe that the universe was created on day 1 along with the earth (according to Gen 1:1). However, this is problematic because
  • the heavens were created on day 2
  • the earth was created on day 3
  • (according to those that hold this view) the sun moon and stars were created on day 4
  • how could the light from such distant object reach us so that distant stars were visible on day 4 unless the rest of the universe is much older?

Further, if this is true, then what was created on day 1 according to them?

For this reason, I believe that option #1 above is true. Therefore, Job records that "sons of God" and "morning stars" praised God as the early stages of creation occurred on earth.

Finally, as to whether such beings existed before the earlier creation of the universe, we are not told; However, I would strongly suspect that God needed to create a place for any such being to live before creating them (as He did on earth). Thus, I believe that these beings were possibly created shortly after the creation of the universe but before earth was created; however, this is my speculation and I only hold it tentatively.

Dottard
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  • I appreciate your last eight words. I will not vote on your response yet but I do appreciate you sharing your perspective on the subject – Nihil Sine Deo Feb 18 '22 at 14:32