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John 1:15 (NASB95)

John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’“

Most translations choose to interpret the ἔμπροσθέν in “ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν” as regarding status rather than order of events.

Within the first chapter, John’s usage of the verb γίνομαι is used exclusively in the sense of either coming into being (vv. 3, 6, 10, 17, 28), or becoming as in a transformation (12, 14).

Therefore, “ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν” in 1:15 & 30 could mean one of two things:

  1. “He has come into being before me”, in this sense, ἔμπροσθέν is indicating the time when the Word “γέγονεν”, or came into existence. So if the Word came into being ἔμπροσθέν John, the γέγονεν would imply that there was a point of origin for the Word and a time when he did not exist. This matches the use of γίνομαι by John up until this point, regarding the origination of creations and attributes.
  2. “He has become before me [in rank]”, in this sense, ἔμπροσθέν is regarding a position of the Word in relation to John, and the γέγονεν is indicating that the positional status came to be at some point.

Is the translational choice of the latter merely due to doctrinal preference of the translators, or are there other factors that point to ἔμπροσθέν being translated in a positional sense? Are there examples of the phrase “ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν” having an established idiomatic meaning in Greek at the time?

A parallel phrase in favor of the former translation would be Isaiah 43:10

Before Me there was no God formed

ἔμπροσθέν μου οὐκ ἐγένετο ἄλλος θεὸς

It is not likely that this passage is referring rank, because it goes on to say

And there will be none after Me.

Which would indicate this is regarding the time in which the other gods were made, not rank.

Is there a closer parallel to the language used in John 1:15 & 30 that would indicate this is about status rather than a prior coming into being?

Note: This question does not ask anything regarding the “ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος” or the “ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν” as the linked question does. That question is about whether or not the passage implies preexistence. This question is regarding whether the “ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν” should be translated as “has a higher rank than I” or “came into existence before me”. The doctrinal implications of this question are quite different.

Any_mouse
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  • It is both - Jesus was both before John chronologically and greater than John in status. See https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/55968/does-john-the-baptists-witness-imply-the-pre-incarnate-existence-of-jesus/55972#55972 – Dottard Jan 31 '22 at 20:01
  • It is quite clear from the text that (as you quote) the Person considered 'existed before' And then he 'came'. The 'coming' is in humanity' The 'existence' preceded the 'coming'. – Nigel J Jan 31 '22 at 20:01
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    Thanks Nigel. But you are referencing two of the three things listed: ‘coming’ ἐρχόμενος, and ‘existing’ ἦν. But between that coming and existing, it mentions a ‘coming into being’ γέγονεν. The question is, is this ‘coming into being’ regarding the ‘before’ as in a higher rank which was obtained at some point, or regarding Jesus as in he came into existence prior to John, meaning there was a time when Jesus was not in existence. γίνομαι tends to indicate something coming into existence which was once not in existence. – Any_mouse Jan 31 '22 at 21:43
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    This differs from the other questions you and Dottard posted, because those both relate to pre-existence, and therefore focus on the ‘ἦν’. I’m saying that the ‘γέγονεν’ can either be translated as Jesus was created/generated before John, or that Jesus’ elevated status came into existence. – Any_mouse Jan 31 '22 at 21:48
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    And then I provided a similar phrase in Isaiah to showcase this point. The question is, between the two translations I provided, what reasonings are there for choosing the latter other than doctrinal? – Any_mouse Jan 31 '22 at 22:00
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    @Any_mouse, I disagree that your question has nothing to do with 'whether or not “πρῶτός μου ἦν” is indicating pre-existence as the linked question asks.' If Dottard is correct and Jesus's chronological preexistence is in view then an affirmative response to your inquiry is even more probable. It becomes even more likely that γέγονεν implies Jesus was created. That said your question is clearly substantially different from the linked question, though it may build off of it, and should be reopened. – Austin Feb 01 '22 at 02:09
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    @Dottard, would you consider reopening the question since the link question doesn't actually address whether or not it can be implied that Jesus was created - the central issue to this question? Otherwise, the closing would have the effect of not allowing the question of Jesus's creation, with regard to John 1:15, to be asked at all. – Austin Feb 01 '22 at 02:13
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    @NigelJ, would you mind sharing that clarity with others once the question is reopened and perhaps even voting to reopen? Obviously, your view is not clear to everyone and this question is substantially different from the one Dottard linked to as there Jesus's creation is not at all addressed. Unless you think that asking questions about Jesus's implied creation with respect to γέγονεν in John 1:15 shouldn't even be allowed on this site. – Austin Feb 01 '22 at 02:20
  • If the question is reworded then it can be re-opened, of course! – Dottard Feb 01 '22 at 02:46
  • @Austin you are right, sorry. Saying that this question has nothing to do with the linked question was probably incorrect. There are definite similarities because they both regard the same passage and similar subject matter. I was trying to stress that these are two very distinct questions and could have completely different answers, because I think the substance of what I was asking was overlooked. Thanks for helping clarify this. – Any_mouse Feb 01 '22 at 03:01
  • @Dottard Thanks. Any suggestions on what you would you like to see? I was trying to stay away from throwing around “created”, because if γέγονεν is talking about the Word coming into existence, it could be considered in a sense of being created or perhaps begotten/generated. I didn’t want to coax an interpretation, I was just trying to establish the possible translations within the semantic range of the words and find the evidence for support of each of them. – Any_mouse Feb 01 '22 at 03:12
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    Then you should ask exactly that question, something like, "In John 1:15, what is the meaning of the word γέγονεν in this context as it applies to the Word? Simple! – Dottard Feb 01 '22 at 07:39
  • @Any_mouse There are only two things in the text. 'Come after' (a matter of humanity) and 'existed before' (a matter of pre-existence before incarnation/manifestation. But, alas, the question is closed. – Nigel J Feb 01 '22 at 10:41
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    I voted to reopen, but it seems like the reason translators understand ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν in the manner they do, is based on what else John says, ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν. I do not think you can interpret one without the other. – Revelation Lad Feb 01 '22 at 17:19
  • @Dottard I have reworded an retitled the question to help clarify. Is this adequate? – Any_mouse Feb 01 '22 at 20:24
  • @Any_mouse it seems like really your question is about "ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν" and not simply "γέγονεν." – Austin Feb 01 '22 at 20:47
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    @Any_mouse, one of the implications of ἔμπροσθέν referring to rank is that John would be implying that at one point in time Jesus did not rank higher than him. – Austin Feb 01 '22 at 20:55
  • @Austin you’re right, the entire phrase is what this concerns. I didn’t realize the title was so important for specifying the entire nuance of the question. I thought the body would suffice for that, and the title could just sum up the general topic (e.g. does {verse} imply {interpretation}). At this point I’m wondering if I should just ask it all as a new question. – Any_mouse Feb 01 '22 at 22:33

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