5

Mark 13:32 (as well as Matthew 24:36) records Jesus saying that only the Father knows the hour of his coming. So wouldn't this imply that the holy spirit isn't omniscient if it's a person?

David the Prince
  • 159
  • 8
  • 1
    Exactly the same would apply to Jesus as well? In any case, such a question is better in Christianity Stack exchange as BHSX would give the answer you are seeking. This question should be migrated to CSX. –  Jul 18 '19 at 01:02
  • @Mac's Musings I'll just keep it in BHSX. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 01:15
  • @Mac's Musings If I don't get an answer here I'll post it in CSX. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 01:25
  • This is completely illogical. Only by his Divine knowledge does the Son say that only the Father knows of a thing. Which would be exactly the same situation for the person who is the Holy Spirit, as @Mac'sMusings competently suggests. – Nigel J Jul 18 '19 at 02:33
  • @Nigel J How is it illogical? If the Father alone knows something then the implication would be that the holy spirit doesn't if it's a person as trinitarians say. And what do you mean by "only by his Divine knowledge does the Son say that only the Father knows of a thing"? The question has nothing to do with Jesus and no one needs needs divine knowledge to know that God knows things that others don't. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 10:57
  • 1
    @DavidthePrince - In that case, you have misunderstood the teaching of the trinity - what you have described is Not the way it is understood. –  Jul 18 '19 at 11:18
  • @Mac's Musings Not at all. The doctrine of the trinity teaches that there are three persons who are each fully God. However, if the holy spirit isn't omniscient as Mark 13:32 would suggest if it's a person, then "he" can't be fully God and so all of this highly suggests that Jesus had no knowledge of a "god the holy spirit" who is a person. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 12:12
  • 1
    That is correct - just as per Jesus as well! Jesus did not claim to know this either. The doctrine of the Trinity is more nuanced that the simplistic picture you present. –  Jul 18 '19 at 21:36
  • The Spirit is certainly a person (unless, of course, you want to argue that angels, demons, and humans are non-persons as well, since they are also described by the same word in Scripture). Whether this person is the same as that of the Father or not is another question entirely. As to your actual question, the Father, as the very name or word betrays, is understood, in Trinitarian thought, to be the source of the other two persons, of one by birth, and of the other by procession. As such, it is at His discretion, what He shares, or not, with the others. – Lucian Jul 27 '19 at 10:50
  • @Lucian But the same word is also used for impersonal things such as wind and breath. We also read about how John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah. How can the Father be the source of the other two persons? That highly suggests that they had a beginning which would eliminate them from being fully God. Furthermore, how can one co-equal god-person of the triune god retain something from the other two? – David the Prince Jul 27 '19 at 15:25
  • @DavidthePrince: That's because the word spirit literally means breath, being connected to respiration, so wind and breathing are its literal meanings. When used for living (breathing) beings (men, animals), it refers to the actual biological entity. Since God, angels, demons, and ghosts are (also) alive (albeit not literally breathing physical air), it applies to them as well. At any rate, God, a living and sentient being, who created man in His image, belongs in the same category as the latter, and it would make little logical sense to treat His Spirit any differently, as mere air. – Lucian Jul 27 '19 at 15:47
  • @Lucian But where in the Biblical text is someone's spirit a distinct person from themself? Saying that God's spirit is a distinct person from Him would be like saying that the spirit of Elijah is a distinct person from Elijah. – David the Prince Jul 27 '19 at 16:32
  • @DavidthePrince: That is a different question. But, at least, it is a question. Denying the personhood of spirits associated to sentient beings, is not. – Lucian Jul 27 '19 at 17:13
  • @Lucian The question is relevant to your objection. When the text says that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah it's clear that the spirit of Elijah isn't a person. Therefore, when the text mentions the "spirit of God" there is no reason to suggest that it's a person. – David the Prince Jul 27 '19 at 17:32
  • @Lucian "Spirit" when being described as owned by someone never refers to a distinct person from that someone in the Biblical text and so by interpretating Scripture with Scripture we can come to a reasonable conclusion that God's spirit isn't a distinct person from Him either. – David the Prince Jul 27 '19 at 17:39
  • @DavidthePrince: The spirit of prophecy is most likely what is meant there. Inspecting the angelic names mentioned in scripture (Michael, Gabriel, Raphael), one notices that each of them references a certain important divine attribute (uniqueness, strength, healing). Within pious extra-biblical writings, and various oral traditions, both Jewish and Christian, one notices the same trend. More to the point, the Kabbala (Jewish mysticism) speaks of Enoch and Elijah becoming the Angels Metatron and Sandalphon. – Lucian Jul 27 '19 at 17:54
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – David the Prince Jul 27 '19 at 18:09

2 Answers2

4

The Bible also says in Revelation that Yeshua has a name known only to him (Revelation 19:12). Does the Father lack omniscience because he doesn't know the true name of Yeshua? I submit that the answer can easily be found other parts of the Bible. Taking two examples:

In the OT, Yeshua wrestles with Jacob and Jacob wins the wrestling match (Genesis 32:25). Does Yeshua therefore lack omnipotence? No, because he cripples Jacob for the rest of his life with a single touch.

Likewise, from the OT, Yeshua struggles against the prince of Persia when attempting to reach Daniel (Daniel 10:12-13). Does Yeshua therefore lack omnipotence? No, because he will defeat sin and death and suffering and the Satan and the armies of the Satan all in one instant simply by speaking (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Simply put, the Ancient Jewish understanding of omnipotence, omniscience, etc, was that YHWH can choose (and that he has in fact chosen) to restrict himself if he wants to. The Spirit and the Son not knowing the day nor the hour therefore has nothing to do with his status as YHWH. That YHWH doesn't know Yeshua's true name also has nothing to do with his status as YHWH. All three are equally YHWH and all three are equal participants in the humility of the trinity.

(As far as any questions as to why I refer to angel of YHWH in Jacob's wrestling match as being Yeshua, it's because the angel of YHWH calls himself God in Genesis 31: 13. He is also called God multiple times. The angel of YHWH is treated as YHWH yet distinct from YHWH, is commonly mistaken for a man, and Yeshua uses the name given to the angel of YHWH by Hagar as his own name in Revelation 18 (where he calls himself "the Living One"). As far as why I call the man-figure in Daniel Yeshua, this is because the man-figure is referred to as "my lord" by Daniel, thus identifying him as YHWH, as angelic beings are never called lord nor are they treated as being YHWH in any capacity.)

The Wayist
  • 93
  • 5
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Caleb Jul 20 '19 at 08:31
  • Excellent answer - good logic and hermeutic! +1. –  Jul 22 '19 at 21:11
  • What in the Tanakh would possibly make you think each Mal’ak of HaShem ( מַלְאַ֨ךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה ) is the same? - The Mal'akim speak messages from HaShem as decrees which are heard in 1st-person because it is a message from HaShem. - None of the Mal’akim are HaShem Himself. – חִידָה Apr 15 '21 at 13:13
  • @חִידָה Several things that I've already explained above already answer this question. You've made a traditional assertion but haven't refuted anything. The first place you could have started, for example, was Hosea telling us that the name of the Angel is "YHWH of hosts". So there is a particular figure being addressed here, and he is himself YHWH of hosts. Which explains Hagar calling in God, Manoa calling him God, Jacob calling him God in his blessing, the Angel calling himself God, the plural gods language that Abraham uses twice, etc. – The Wayist Sep 06 '21 at 04:05
0

Q1 How do Trinitarians deal with Mark 13:32 in regards to the holy spirit?

I think this is a great question for this board as it allows us to talk hermeneutics. When it comes to biblical interpretation we want to make sure we have read it well from Genesis to Revelation to get the big picture or the entire context. After doing this we will find references to a 3-1 Godhead from Genesis to Revelation that are clear.

Secondly, when it comes to a challenging passage like the verse above we look at it within the context of the entire Bible. If the doctrine of the trinity is clear then and we interpret this verse as evidence that there is no trinity, then we know we are making a mistake in our interpretation.

So, to answer this question specifically, we deal with this passage by using the rest of the Bible (context) to help us view this passage properly.

Q2. Mark 13:32 (as well as Matthew 24:36) records Jesus saying that only the Father knows the hour of his coming. So wouldn't this imply that the holy spirit isn't omniscient if it's a person?

The view of the Trinity is that there is a 3 in 1 Godhead in which there is a unity in deity yet distinctions. God the Father and the Holy Spirit have a divine nature but do not have a human nature. Jesus has a divine and a human nature. They are still 1 God. God having information about a date in the future and choosing to withhold that information from the other members of the trinity does not mean that they are not omniscient. They may know everything (omniscience) except that which God the Father has the ability to conceal from them. With Jesus' ability to know things before they happen and know what people are thinking I wouldn't be quick to write Him or the Holy Spirit off based upon this one verse.

Lionsden
  • 517
  • 2
  • 5
  • 1
    But according the doctrine of the trinity the three persons of the triune god are co-equal. So how can one co-equal god-person of the triune god limit the abilities of the other two? I should also point out that we find many instances of people knowing things before they happen and knowing what people are thinking in the Bible from various prophets as they are given that power by God. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 16:13
  • 1
    You also said: "If the doctrine of the trinity is clear then and we interpret this verse as evidence that there is no trinity, then we know we are making a mistake in our interpretation." But that presumes that the doctrine of the trinity is clearly taught in the Bible and there are no verses which unambiguously speak of God as being triune. The most important principle of Biblical hermeneutics is to interpret the ambiguous passages in light of the unambiguous passages and Mark 13:32 unambiguously indicates that Jesus had no knowledge of a "god the holy spirit" person. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 16:21
  • Furthermore, the definition of being omniscent is to be all-knowing and so if Jesus and the holy spirit (if as trinitarians say it's a person) don't know everything then they aren't omniscient. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 16:24
  • The doctrine of the trinity is clear when we combine all of the various passages from Genesis to Rev. Jesus claims to be the proper name for God, I AM, the audience understands this claim and tries to stone Him. Claimed to know Abraham who died thousands of years earlier, etc. Mark 13 clear states God alone knows. This passage doesn't mention the Holy Spirit but does mention angels. We do not assume that angels are divine. It's simply that this is not a passage to teach us about the nature of God as others are. – Lionsden Jul 18 '19 at 18:39
  • The nature of God is omniscient as a whole. If Jesus knows everything there is to know except the hour I would not say this disqualifies Him as being God. Jesus submits to God the Fathers will even though He's God incarnate. This does not diminish His deity either. – Lionsden Jul 18 '19 at 18:41
  • Explaining the trinity will always be challenging so we must look at the entire Bible as a whole from the "Let us Make Man in OUR image" to John 1, to the Alpha and Omega titles in the last 2 chapters of Revelation. Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.Acts 20:28 – Lionsden Jul 18 '19 at 18:43
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – David the Prince Jul 18 '19 at 20:23
  • I am is a simple phrase. If someone asks me if I'm a painter, and I say, I am, I'm not claiming to be God. The people picked up stones because of his answer that Abraham saw his day, and he said he was before Abraham. The people misinterpreted most of what he said, and it's clear Jesus was goading them for shock effect. Later they asked if he was the Son of God, Jesus said, I am. Jesus did not say, no, I'm the second person of the trinity, God in the flesh, because nowhere in the Bible does it say that, and Jesus never claimed it. –  Jun 11 '23 at 23:20
  • Fact is that the whole Bible has not a single reference to a trinity, and the trinity was not invented outside of paganism until the third century when Constantine blended paganism with Christianity (including changing the Sabbath day to Sunday, falsely, and the birth of Christ to the birth of Saturn/Satan, December 25). None of the apostles ever taught about a trinity, and even Jesus did not speak of a trinity. If Jesus was a trinity and it was important, Jesus would have spoken about it and taught the apostles to teach it. This by itself is conclusive evidence the trinity is a pagan fiction. –  Jun 11 '23 at 23:25